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Getting tune... Guess the numbers


Subru

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Im seeing  from 193.7 to around 230. Very interesting.

@4G63B8 got 220 with same mods and @Inked got 210 (tuned by chris) with just exhaust iirc . I hope my numbers are similar but numbers only tell part of the story when getting a proper tune so im not too worried about them.

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Just try not to worry to much about the top number it hits, I am a firm believer of area under the graph compared to a car that 350kw with a power band between 6.5k and 8k. Chris is amazing at what he does safe to say what ever number it makes it'll perform a lot smoother and better than it does now.

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2 hours ago, Subru said:

Im seeing  from 193.7 to around 230. Very interesting.

@4G63B8 got 220 with same mods and @Inked got 210 (tuned by chris) with just exhaust iirc . I hope my numbers are similar but numbers only tell part of the story when getting a proper tune so im not too worried about them.

4g65b8 had a stock boost contoller so you have the advantage there

plus he was road tuned :)

 

some days i wish i had a dyno in the back yard heheh 

 

free dyno runs for all subies all day!!

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3 hours ago, Pappu1 said:

4g65b8 had a stock boost contoller so you have the advantage there

plus he was road tuned :)

 

some days i wish i had a dyno in the back yard heheh 

 

free dyno runs for all subies all day!!

 

Stock boost control with a 3 port is better than most aftermarket ebc.

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Results are in...

190kw

365nm

This really baffled Chris (tuner) and he suspects there could be engine issues or something. He was expecting 210 which are the results he usually gets with these. He said as soon as he put any timing in, it would detonate really bad. He suggested to get a compression check and leak down test (should have already done this duh...). He said it was running a bit lean so he cleaned the MAF sensor and it was a bit more rich but still not the usual rich he usually sees on Subarus and he wonders what damage could have been done due to being run lean for however long its been like it. Boost holds better than he expected going from 22.6psi and dropping to only 18-19ish so I suspect the turbo is okay. There was a black wrx that he also tuned today that went from 135kw to 180kw on 16psi but my car just didnt have it...

So ima see whats wrong and then any changes I make will require touch ups and hopefully the engine is not fu**ed.

lmk thoughts/ideas

 

Edit: First dyno run in winter got 177kw and it was 6 degrees. Today was 32 degrees. If that makes any difference.

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Ahh that's all good man, even though it wasn't the numbers you are hoping atleast you have the piece of mind that Chris has got it to a point that is safe.

 

When mine was tuned it had the same issue as well which is strange? He replaced my Cam angle sensor? by memory and it made it a lot better. at least the touch up tunes are like a quick $150 haha I have had a few :P 

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Start with the compression test as that will tell you if it's a big job or not... If it comes back good straight away then you have less stress. 

At the same time:

  • the plugs (colour and heat number) since they are out anyway for the compression test.
  • piston tops for carbon build up. Again same time as compression test.

then cheap easy stuff like:

  • fuel pressure and quality 
  • timing, the physical base 
  • And intercooler is clean and free from oil and the fins aren't all bent. Unlikely but can cause a heat issue. Is the intake temp sensor high if you log it?
Edited by Gripless
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Could be anything from previous head skimming upping compression etc. again compression test shows this.

still could be wrong plugs or gap...

 

its going to be annoying you for a few days so just enjoy the non detonating extra power, have a beer and chill until you get a few tests back. 

 

Good thing is you found an issue before the car went pop :CEL:

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13 minutes ago, Subru said:

150,000kms

I have a oil catch can which I could install, this might give an indication of how much blowby is happening.

Doesnt seem to use much oil either.

Mine doesn't use any oil, but my blowby ruffles your hair if you open the oil cap, and leaves a nasty film on the tmic. I hit 211kw at 400nm, couldn't add any more timing because of knock. Even if it was richened up, still knocked. Oil catch can (or air oil separator) and try again.

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@Gripless When my motor was built Chris told me that my head must of been skimmed down a bit as the compression was higher. I am not that motor savey would you be able to elaborate on this please? He told me that once I get bigger injectors,turbo etc we can go for more power but it was effecting the stock setup to try and squeeze more out of it.

Is this a bad thing to have? will it mean that even once I gain a larger turbo than the VF30 and supporting mods that my motor may not handle the power. TIA (sorry to hijack thread @Subru)

Edited by Inked
Because I cant spell -_-
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Ok you need to understand compression ratio...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nveqCMNTth0

 

Skimming is what you do to make the top of the block and head dead flat so they seal correctly.

it is a cutting machine that takes tenth of a mm off the block or head each pass until it is flat.

Most often done when you have blown a head gasket. Though closed decking, doweling and sleeves and head porting often requires it as well. 

 

Say you did this for a blown gasket for both head and block you have lost .4mm (2 passes at .1mm for head as well as block) then do it again for close deck or rebuilder does it out of habit you've lost 0.8mm from the above the piston.

Now since this makes the cylinder shorter above the piston with the same crank stroke you increase the compression ratio as the cylinder volume is smaller but has the same stroke. 

 

Now compressing air weather by turbo or the piston in the cylinder creates heat (this is why intercooler are after the turbo and you need bigger coolers for higher power).

 

if the heat gets too high the petrol and air detonate before the spark and since that is too early in the rotation of the crank it's not forcing the crank to turn as much as loading up the rod and bearings (which snaps the rods and makes holes in the block)

 

Its like only peddling a bike when the pedal is vertical so you get less turning for the force you push downwards (almost no turning). Luckily on a bike the load is small and no damage happens. Now do that with a sledge hammer type force in and engine and you have a broken bike.

 

That's why na Hondas are 11:1 and turbos are 9:1 (8.5:1 in 1990's) Hondas have no turbo heat so can compress the cylinder more before the detonation happens. 

 

Hope that S*** makes some sense it's long and I haven't checked it. Though someone will point out holes(pun) in it.

 

ive ignored the good bits like:

turbo efficiency maps/graphs which is where turbos compress air the most with the least heat. Over working a stocker of creates too much heat which is why you get a bigger one. Too big and it lags, too small it just heats the air.

fuel quality i.e. Octane that resists destination or requires more heat to ignite.

And the trade off between on and off boost performance/efficiency of compression ratios.

 

 

@Inked in short as long as the heat is below the point that the fuel detonates you're good. So more efficient turbo and bigger cooler will allow you to get more power before things go wrong.

that or thick arse head gasket to restore the missing height.

Edited by Gripless
Cos that S*** wasn't long enough before........
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190 is all good imo

think my Rs did 190 with similar mods (I had old Rs hydraulic heads, non semi forged pistons, maxed at 17psi and had an engine that had seen abuse for a lot of its 260,000km life, also the td05 helped out)

 

curious us about the early knocking though :/ at least you know the tune you now have is SAFE

so every time you redline it you know there's no damage happening

that was my main worry before I had a tune

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9 minutes ago, Gripless said:

Ok you need to understand compression ratio...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nveqCMNTth0

 

Skimming is what you do to make the top of the block and head dead flat so they seal correctly.

it is a cutting machine that takes tenth of a mm off the block or head each pass until it is flat.

Most often done when you have blown a head gasket. Though closed decking, doweling and sleeves and head porting often requires it as well. 

 

Say you did this for a blown gasket for both head and block you have lost .4mm (2 passes at .1mm for head as well as block) then do it again for close deck or rebuilder does it out of habit you've lost 0.8mm from the above the piston.

Now since this makes the cylinder shorter above the piston with the same crank stroke you increase the compression ratio as the cylinder volume is smaller but has the same stroke. 

 

Now compressing air weather by turbo or the piston in the cylinder creates heat (this is why intercooler are after the turbo and you need bigger coolers for higher power).

 

if the heat gets too high the petrol and air detonate before the spark and since that is too early in the rotation of the crank it's not forcing the crank to turn as much as loading up the rod and bearings (which snaps the rods and makes holes in the block)

 

Its like only peddling a bike when the pedal is vertical so you get less turning for the force you push downwards (almost no turning). Luckily on a bike the load is small and no damage happens. Now do that with a sledge hammer type force in and engine and you have a broken bike.

 

That's why na Hondas are 11:1 and turbos are 9:1 (8.5:1 in 1990's) Hondas have no turbo heat so can compress the cylinder more before the detonation happens. 

 

Hope that S*** makes some sense it's long and I haven't checked it. Though someone will point out holes(pun) in it.

 

ive ignored the good bits like:

turbo efficiency maps/graphs which is where turbos compress air the most with the least heat. Over working a stocker of creates too much heat which is why you get a bigger one. Too big and it lags, too small it just heats the air.

fuel quality i.e. Octane that resists destination or requires more heat to ignite.

And the trade off between on and off boost performance/efficiency of compression ratios.

 

 

@Inked in short as long as the heat is below the point that the fuel detonates you're good. So more efficient turbo and bigger cooler will allow you to get more power before things go wrong.

that or thick arse head gasket to restore the missing height.

Oh my god. I think my brain brain just snapped a rod haha.

 

Thank you for explaining this, it is interesting that myself & @Subru have had a similar experience with the detonation up top. I am feeling relieved to know that there are ways to counter this though. When a tuner says something like that to you I automatically thought the worst ha ha. :D 

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As a side note, the type of detonation/knock you're getting isn't dieseling (spontaneous explosive combustion of the contents of the cylinder due solely to compression) but when timing is added (advanced) the mixture is burning too quickly, or burning explosively (all at once instead of an advancing flame front), but the long and short of it is you're getting peak cylinder pressure before a couple of degrees after (I think it's just after that you want, but I've had a coupla wines...) TDC. This means that the explosion is fighting the rise of the piston initially instead of helping it to go down (across, yay Subaru) the cylinder. There's a variety of possible causes and it can be a bugger to track down; recently it seems that quite a few V7 motors have been prone to it. Current theories are excessive blowby causing loss of octane/knock resistance, and the exhaust valves floating combined with high exhaust backpressure allowing exhaust gasses to linger in the cylinder, causing increased cylinder temperature and increased chance of detonation.

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26 minutes ago, Subru said:

Engineering explained... My brain just dies after one of his videos. His new videos full of graphs and equations im just like naah its easier to just watch some videos of cars having crashes.

Ok compression ratio the difference between

  • volume or air in the cylinder when the piston is at the bottom.
  • volume or air in the cylinder when the piston is at the top.

 

say you have a 2L 4 cylinder boxer :$ shocking I know

each cylinder is 250cc when the piston is at the bottom.

if that got compressed as the piston traveled up and the valves are closed so it can't escape it goes down to 25cc

that would be 10:1 compression.

 

anyway @boon is more technically accurate, but you get the idea.

Edited by Gripless
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15 minutes ago, THUNDA said:

190 is all good imo

think my Rs did 190 with similar mods (I had old Rs hydraulic heads, non semi forged pistons, maxed at 17psi and had an engine that had seen abuse for a lot of its 260,000km life, also the td05 helped out)

 

curious us about the early knocking though :/ at least you know the tune you now have is SAFE

so every time you redline it you know there's no damage happening

that was my main worry before I had a tune

Yeah, I definitely feel more torque earlier on in the rpm range and at some points higher up there are some decent power differences. Ill post charts up when I get my phone back.

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