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Garrett turbos comparisons.


funkytown

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by chance i've stumbled across some interesting reading. While im not trying to validate to myself that a gt3071 is 'best', the wheel ratio insight is very interesting.

 
A quick and dirty review of how a turbo works is essential as it is fundamental to understanding the tools we have to help us choose. A turbo is an air pump that’s powered by the energy contained in the engine's exhaust gas flow by spinning a turbine impeller wheel. That wheel rotates on a shaft that has a compressor wheel mounted to the other end that then also spins and forces more air into the engine's intake. It's the exhaust energy and turbine wheel that powers the compressor wheel to increase intake air pressure, and your boost controller that determines the amount of pressure (with the wastegate redirecting exhaust flow as required to prevent over-boosting). It's important to recognize that it's the compressor wheel that's in charge of reaching the desired boost pressure, and the turbine wheel’s job to spin it accordingly. When the turbine is struggling to do its job effectively the compressors ability to provide boost in a timely manner is compromised and we recognize this effect as turbo lag. When it's completely up to the challenge to power the compressor we recognize it as providing excellent throttle response.

turbo.gif

In fact, our success in choosing the best turbo for our use rests solely on our ability to understand this relationship between turbine and compressor. And for our purposes of choosing among the GT line that relationship is primarily determined by (a) the relative diameters of those two wheels and (b) the aerodynamics of the turbine housing. The resulting performance is called Turbine Efficiency, and its measure is expressed as a percentage. A turbo whose turbine can efficiently power the compressor to produce quick spool and less restricted top end flow has a higher %, often close to or slightly exceeding 70%, while others are as low as 60%.

Here's what we're looking for in the Garrett specs:

(a) Garrett recommends a wheel diameter ratio range between 1.1:1 and 1.25:1 (compressor:turbine) to provide the best overall performance. As an example the GT28RS has a ratio of 1.1:1 (60mm/53.8mm) at the quickest spooling end of the range, and the GT3076R has 1.27:1 (76.2mm/60mm)…barely outside the other end of the range. The reason a large compressor wheel mated to a smallish wheel would not be able to spool as quickly is because a largish compressor wheel will need to turn slower to provide any given intake airflow than a smaller wheel would, and this in-turn forces the turbine wheel on the other end of the shaft to turn slower, and at speeds that it can’t operate as efficiently at. This is contrary to those that believe a comparatively small turbine wheel and housing will cause the largish compressor to spool more quickly. Dyno results confirm Garrett’s recommendations every time, while I have never seen evidence of a small turbine/large compressor spooling nearly as quickly.

Good examples to see this effect would be the GT28RS, GT2871R (or HKS GTRS), and GT2876R (or HKS GT2540R). All three share the identical turbine housing and wheel, but are mated with 60mm, 71mm, and 76 mm compressor wheels. The latter two compressor wheel diameters push the wheel ratio well outside of the recommended range to 1.32:1 and 1.45:1. Each larger compressor wheel causes a delay in spool of perhaps 750 rpm to ~17 psi and makes less top end power as well. The only way to make these wider spaced wheel combinations make more power is to significantly raise boost pressure. This however will not reduce lag, the restrictively small turbine wheel and housing will limit high rpm power as it reduces the entire engine’s VE, less ignition timing can be run at high rpm causing reduced power from the airflow, exhaust temps will be higher, and you’ll have to deal with all of the risks associated with higher boost levels. The solution is to follow Garrett’s recommendations whenever possible.

(b) The turbine housings are designed to maximize turbine efficiency. In some cases though a turbine housing will be made or modified to fit specific user applications like space constraints or the lack of suitable sized exhaust manifold turbine mounting flanges for some popular applications. This has led to small turbines modified to stuff in large wheels, large turbos with small turbines made to fit onto small exhaust manifold flanges, smallish turbos modified to fit onto large flanged manifolds, etc…and all of them have reduced the turbine’s efficiency to spool quickly and produce the strongest powerband. The impact of some twin scroll housings can’t be predicted because of their lack of turbine efficiency ratings by Garrett, but their impact will be seen in dyno results. In some of these cases the wheel ratio will appear to be ideal, but the modification to the turbine housing itself can negatively affect turbine efficiency. This is why it’s important to know the Garrett tested Turbine Efficiency % rating.

The various iterations of GT3071R is a good example of these variables. All models use the 71 mm compressor wheel, but some have a 56.5mm turbine wheel stuffed into a machined T28 turbine housing, some have the better matched 60mm turbine wheel fitted to a twin scroll housing of unknown efficiency, and the one that mates it with the 60 mm turbine wheel and T3 single scroll housing. The latter is surely the best of the bunch using Garrett’s specs and recommendations, and it’s very high efficiency rating of 72% and ideal wheel ratio of 1.18:1means that for this size of turbo you are unlikely to find anything that will out-spool or out-flow it. It also means that the similarly flow rated GT2871R models with less than ideal wheel ratio and as little as 60% turbine efficiency will not perform as well as the GT3071R at 72%. Some feel that the GT3071R versions that have been used on the 3S-GTE have been less than stellar performers, but these results I'd suggest are consistent with Garrett’s specs, ratings, and the recommendations presented here. Let’s choose the best model and set some powerband records!

I’d recommend that you first use the Garrett compressor maps to identify the compressor that can flow your requirements (see Garrett’s Turbo Tech section for these calculations), and then to consider the wheel ratios and the turbine efficiency ratings found on their turbine maps as a guide to matching that compressor with a suitable turbine wheel and housing. While efficiency actually varies with flow rate, pressure ratio (think boost level), and turbine wheel rotation speed, the stated maximum efficiency rating is going to be quite comparable among all models within the GT line.

Now you need to choose the turbine housing AR. You’ll notice on the turbine maps that the efficiency curves are different for the various available turbine housing AR. These shows that the lower AR housings are more efficient at lower flow rates generated at lower engine rpm, while higher AR housings are more efficient at higher rpm flow rates. These housing options will allow you to choose between maximum low rpm spool and power at the cost of a little high rpm peak power, or maximum peak power at the cost of a little lower rpm performance, or something in-between if there’s a 3rd option. Valendia and RickyB provided a good dyno comparison of this AR housing trade-off using a .64 and .82 AR on the GT28RS. The lower AR made for a significantly stronger powerband overall on this setup, and I believe we will see this trend with each turbo model and engine setup…if peak power is your goal the higher AR will likely provide that every time.

I hope this will help you better choose from the GT turbo options that are available.

Bruce Hadfield

Sources

“Turbo Matching” by Mike Kojima, SCC June 2003. Formula for calculating engine airflow, and plotting a compressor map.

“Performance Dictionary” by Jason Kavanagh, SCC July 2002. The Garrett engineer uses a detailed turbine map to discuss turbine efficiency.

Garrett website http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/index.html. Compressor and turbine specifications and maps.

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i have more to post up if you guys want to discuss this more :) thoroughly interesting stuff.

here is one of the sourced articles.

 

Turbine Efficiency - Performance Dictionary

Turbine Efficiency: The ratio of the useful energy to the energy supplied to it as delivered by a dynamic system which converts kinetic and thermodynamic energy into mechanical power by means of blades arrayed about the circumference of a wheel.

You've been cheated. Swindled. And misled. You've been sold on turbo compressor efficiency for years. When it comes to forced induction, people get red-faced and sweaty over a few percentage points of compressor efficiency. "The turbo's centrifugal compressor has the best efficiency of any compression device, so turbos rule," goes the mantra. Turbos may rule, but there's a much bigger contributor to a turbo's effectiveness than compressor efficiency.

Turbine efficiency Huh? You've heard the term efficiency applied to compressors a zillion times, but how does it apply to turbines, and why is it significant? More importantly, how does it make your car go faster? To explain it, we must understand the turbine's function and how it works.

Turbine. What is it? In a turbo, the compressor barks orders at the turbine. Any given boost level requires a certain turbine speed, so the turbine struggles obediently to meet the boss' demands, tapping the hot exhaust flow for the energy to drive the compressor. Sometimes the turbine gets caught slacking and simply can't provide enough oomph to drive the compressor. This is where we see "turbo lag"-the turbine can't keep up, and boost cannot be generated in a timely fashion.

What causes this to happen? The amount of work a turbine is capable of providing depends on four primary variables: exhaust flow, temperature, turbine efficiency and expansion ratio. Keep in mind that expansion ratio is turbine inlet pressure (that is, exhaust manifold pressure) minus the pressure in the exhaust downstream of the turbine. Since the exhaust is an open system, expansion ratio is directly related to how much backpressure the turbine places on the engine. And since backpressure kills the engine's volumetric efficiency, reductions in expansion ratio are welcome.

When operating more efficiently, a turbine can do more work with a given amount of flow. Or, it can do the same amount of work, and do it at a lower expansion ratio. The significance of turbine efficiency on spool-up and backpressure cannot be overstated. Don't believe me? Take the example of a Garrett GT25 turbo on a 2.2-liter engine at 2200 rpm, where all parameters except turbine efficiency are identical. For simplicity, all the flow is going through the turbine; none is being bypassed (or wastegated) around the turbine. Improving turbine efficiency from 62 percent to 74 percent not only makes 4 psi more boost (boost went from 8 to 12 psi), it also improves the engine's pressure differential by nearly 3 psi. Pressure differential? Yeah, that's intake manifold pressure minus exhaust manifold pressure, and a higher pressure differential means better volumetric efficiency.

It's rare that improving a single parameter has such far-reaching effects.

Mapping a path to more power

Now that you're convinced of the merits of turbine efficiency, how does one determine if the turbine has any chance of meeting the compressor's demands? To sort it all out, turbomachinery engineers use a turbine map like the one on the previous page.

What the hell is that? Each curve on the map (known as a speedline) represents a single shaft speed, denoted at the top of the map. So the line that says 27,758 next to it is the 27,758 rpm speedline. For a given speed, the map has two curves-one for flow, and another for efficiency. Note that flow and efficiency can vary with expansion ratio, even at a single speed, and as the expansion ratio goes up, flow goes up, but efficiency drops off. We'll save the gory details of the turbine map and matching for another time, but for now, we'll use the turbine map to show how turbine efficiency can vary depending on the circumstances. To make this a little easier to grasp, check out a compressor map and you'll see the same type of information, except organized a bit differently.

You'll notice some turbos pair the compressor with a much smaller diameter turbine wheel. Let's take a look at what happens in this situation. Sure, a small turbine will be more restrictive than a larger one as flow increases, but the small turbine will make the turbo spool up quickly, right? Wrong. An undersized turbine can actually cause spool-up to be worse than a properly matched turbine. How? Check out this next chart (on top). For clarity, only the efficiency curves are shown on this chart.

With the solid lines, we paired a 53.85mm T25R turbine wheel with a 60mm T3 compressor wheel. With the dashed lines, we used the same turbine on a 76mm T04S compressor wheel to demonstrate the impact of wheel diameter mismatches. Notice how the efficiency speedlines appear to slope downward sharply with the larger compressor wheel. As you may know, the larger the compressor wheel, the slower it needs to turn to provide the necessary boost and flow. These low speeds mean the turbine has to provide work at shaft speeds that it's not too happy about. But the compressor is the boss, so the turbine reluctantly agrees and in turn, provides sloppy work by doing it very inefficiently.

With the 76mm T04S compressor wheel, the T25R turbine wheel operates with 8 to 15 percent lower efficiency than if it was driving the 60mm T3 wheel. With the T3 wheel, the turbo would spool roughly 1500 rpm sooner, attributable entirely to the turbine efficiency improvement! An engine that requires a 76mm compressor wheel would be much better served with a larger diameter turbine wheel.

But won't a larger turbine wheel increase inertia and hurt spool-up? Everyone likes to say inertia is what makes turbos laggy, but inertia is only one piece to the spooling puzzle. Testing by Garrett Engine Boosting Systems has shown if inertia is improved by 25 percent but turbine efficiency falls 2 percent, there will be no net improvement in spool-up. In fact, many older turbos employing low-inertia ceramic turbine wheels actually had worse transient response than their metal counterparts. The reason? Ceramic wheels, being quite brittle, needed very thick blades for acceptable strength. The thick blades reduced turbine efficiency.

Since inertia does play a role in transient response, you don't want to go too big on turbine wheel diameter. As a general rule, the best tradeoff keeps the ratio of compressor wheel to turbine wheel diameter between 1.1 and 1.25, with the compressor being the smaller of the two.

Clipped Wheels

Clipping is a common low-cost trick to improve turbo performance, and yes, clipping the exducer of turbine wheels does improve flow capability and reduces inertia. But is clipping automatically a good thing? How about another chart?

The chart on the bottom of page 304 shows two identical T25 turbine wheels, with the only difference being a 15-degree clip on the exducer. The clipped wheel picked up about 5 percent flow capacity but lost four to five points in turbine efficiency. Net result? The clipped wheel behaves as though it has 50 percent more inertia. Sure, the inertia was reduced a bit when it was clipped, but overall it's best to avoid clipping if possible. There's a reason Garrett does not clip the wheels in the first place. And when they do, it's usually to address a blade frequency issue rather than for performance.

So, now what?There are some things you can do to your existing turbo to improve turbine efficiency:

* Smooth the casting bumps and lumps at the inlet of the turbine housing with a die grinder* ExtrudeHone the turbine housing

* Put a 7- to 12-degree included angle conical diffuser at the turbine discharge

To sidestep poor turbine efficiency in your next turbo, avoid the following (listed from most to least significant):

* Older wheels that were designed without the help of modern aerodynamics analysis tools. For example: the modern GT42 and older TV45 turbine wheel have identical 82mm diameters and similar flow capacity. In the same 1.06 a/r housing, the GT42 decimates the antiquated TV45 everywhere on the map, sometimes by as much as ten points of efficiency. 'Nuff said.

* Turbos with small turbine wheels paired with large compressor wheels (For example: T25R/T04S, also known as the GT25/40. There's a reason we used this turbo as the bad example on those turbine maps.)

* Clipped wheels

* On-center turbine housings. These cost you one to three points in turbine efficiency

* Housings that have been "bored out" for larger wheels

Go forth and preach the new gospel: "Increased turbine efficiency gives better boost response and higher volumetric efficiency."

Now there's something to get hot and sweaty about.

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i could pick sooooooo many holes in that

every gt turbo Garrett makes has a backcut on the turbine, all their vnt based turbos come with both large turbine hsg with small wheels and small hsg with large wheels as do most manufacturers these days.

alot of older wheels make socalled new designs look bad for performance thus kkk turbos in f1 days used and old style cast not cnc billet comp wheel running over 60 psi( PR of 5.5), non of the Garrett range made currently come remotely close to that bench mark.

anyone know what a 60/1 comp wheel is? old design over 15yrs old which by the way has a wider map than a 35r wheel and makes the same power, but lets not mention that

some of the ratio to comp to turbine wheels far far exceed whats mentioned above and those turbos are made by Garrett, don't believe all you read

and the biggest problem with all that is when applied to the real world as in everyone gets different results from the same turbo there is sooooo much more to turbo charging than the calculator as shown above as its meant to be so simplistic but its not, having said that i call garrett the s.l.u.t.s of the turbo world theyll tell you anything to get a sale and ill admit there marketing is second to non but see what the other manufacturers have to say

Holset..borgwarner...ihi....mhi....kkk etc etc etc all have many units to pick from that leave garrett for dead both technology and performance and quality ever noticed how the others dont lay down the law like Garrett?

and noticed how they dont plaster the net with myths and spells?

they all have a place in the market they also have many different opinions and results to match,

sorry jon ive read that article before ive got an interesting link from a Garrett outlet bagging others work and products whats funny is these products are also Garrett

http://turbodirect.co.za/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=709&Itemid=21

i sent a report to the people they bagged who i also deal with made for interesting emails

and so on and so on and so on

this makes me laugh:DO Put a 7- to 12-degree included angle conical diffuser at the turbine discharge

Dont do clipped turbine wheels

AH daaaaaarrr its the same bloody thing !!!! ::) ::)

don't use on center turbine housings........no shit Garrett you made them in first place ( nothing like a screw up that you forgot you created in the first place)

comparing a gt42 to a tv45 he may have forgotten to mention one is ball bearing and the other bush tends to make a difference.....but lets not mention that point

you can get the idea why Garrett doesn't like me.......dam good fun though ;D

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interesting....

"Good examples to see this effect would be the GT28RS, GT2871R (or HKS GTRS), and GT2876R (or HKS GT2540R). All three share the identical turbine housing and wheel, but are mated with 60mm, 71mm, and 76 mm compressor wheels. The latter two compressor wheel diameters push the wheel ratio well outside of the recommended range to 1.32:1 and 1.45:1. Each larger compressor wheel causes a delay in spool of perhaps 750 rpm to ~17 psi and makes less top end power as well. The only way to make these wider spaced wheel combinations make more power is to significantly raise boost pressure. This however will not reduce lag, the restrictively small turbine wheel and housing will limit high rpm power as it reduces the entire engine’s VE, less ignition timing can be run at high rpm causing reduced power from the airflow, exhaust temps will be higher, and you’ll have to deal with all of the risks associated with higher boost levels. The solution is to follow Garrett’s recommendations whenever possible."

Isn't Ricks turbo a 2871? cant be that inefficient as he's making 280kw(@25psi) atw on it.

and why would they not recommend their own turbos?

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raising boost does change the turbos threshold/response get your stock sub setup and drop the boost to 5 psi and see what happens wont turn on till must later as you have to waste so much exhaust energy to reduce boost levels, as with any setup.

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 Stoffa']

interesting....

"Good examples to see this effect would be the GT28RS, GT2871R (or HKS GTRS), and GT2876R (or HKS GT2540R). All three share the identical turbine housing and wheel, but are mated with 60mm, 71mm, and 76 mm compressor wheels. The latter two compressor wheel diameters push the wheel ratio well outside of the recommended range to 1.32:1 and 1.45:1. Each larger compressor wheel causes a delay in spool of perhaps 750 rpm to ~17 psi and makes less top end power as well. The only way to make these wider spaced wheel combinations make more power is to significantly raise boost pressure. This however will not reduce lag, the restrictively small turbine wheel and housing will limit high rpm power as it reduces the entire engine’s VE, less ignition timing can be run at high rpm causing reduced power from the airflow, exhaust temps will be higher, and you’ll have to deal with all of the risks associated with higher boost levels. The solution is to follow Garrett’s recommendations whenever possible."

Isn't Ricks turbo a 2871? cant be that inefficient as he's making 280kw(@25psi) atw on it.

and why would they not recommend their own turbos?

Heres my own interpretation of Ricks results. We know that the compressor side is the same on his as per 3071, but a smaller turbine side. On his set up he was only managing in the 240's with the 0.63 rear housing as it was choking badly. That was with a ported and cammed & valved motor - and i think you've already quoted the amounts of cash to get the type of head work that Rick has.

The shortblock has since had a rebuild - but retained the detailed head work and went to the larger 0.86 rear housing on the same turbo, and managed nearly 280@25psi.

I've got his plots and his a reasonably high boost threshold as a result - it crept nearly 700rpm on the housing change im lead to believe. Another car (not my own) i know running 280 out of a 3071 is making nearly 50nM more at the same boost levels & 296kw.

So in look at the differences around his combination i do think it still fits with what the article says personally. Basically his is taking alot more to drive it for not quite as many kw's, that is, its less efficient.

[quote name='vorigan said:

raising boost does change the turbos threshold/response get your stock sub setup and drop the boost to 5 psi and see what happens wont turn on till must later as you have to waste so much exhaust energy to reduce boost levels, as with any setup.

totally agree with this. Mines a complete bag of s*** at wastegate pressure, thats about 0.8bar. Feels sooo slow and linear. The ramp and pull from 0-0.8bar is much worse when its wound right down.

I dont want to get into a branding discussion, comparing Garrett to others and others to Garrett and the resulting ethics and BS that goes on. What I'm looking at is a set number of variables from within one turbo category and manufacturer as im personally interested and seems to be a popular aftermarket turbo of choice in the club.

I dont have any qualms in admitting there are many many combinations that break the ratio recommendations outlined here. But its my hypothesis that this notion of matching wheel ratios is particularly important for the Subaru setup as we are all (ej20, ej25) particularly sensitive to back pressure when hunting for bigger numbers when looking at other 4 banger turbo combinations out there.. And my underlying assumption (and i think as described in the article) is what the wheel ratios do to back pressure and efficiency.

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the thing is its only Garrett stating the so called "ratio rule" no one else does

regardless what rick has it works and that like any combo is all that matters as i said the science and what calculator says doesn't equal real world results never has, back pressures can be easily changed by head work cams exhaust compression etc etc so don't get to hung up on it Jon and back pressure also increases response as much as it can hurt it.

most stock turbo cars run around 2:1 back pressure on the turbine to aid response dropping the back pressure does add power but kills response eg: f1 run below 1:1 but didn't turn on till very late in rpm even with boost control systems and things we don't know about but hit like a train when it came on yes it was 1500 making 1500hp but turbo still ran small turbine hsg with large turbine and large comp wheel and large hsg going by that article that's a no no but Garrett couldn't match that at the time thus kkk was the flavor of the day.

i own one of these turbos its nothing flash inside.

and why would i know better than them? easy i have to make it all work as for mismatch well ive lost count of combos ive done over the years and that's all types of engines anyone remember a little yellow sti coupe i did with my tdo6 and stock sub 7cm turbine housing with a LARGE turbine wheel a 60/1 comp wheel making full boost at 3200 and 25psi turning 383kw wheel now how many subs do that?

who cares cause it did and goes against everything in that article i used garrett/mhi/ihi parts both large wheels small housings, blows their theories out the window and its far from the first time ive done it and wont be the last.

best way to sum it all up " do as we say not as we do" translated: hypocrites

Garrett build turbos not setups

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 vorigan said:
remember a little yellow sti coupe i did with my tdo6 and stock sub 7cm turbine housing with a LARGE turbine wheel a 60/1 comp wheel making full boost at 3200 and 25psi turning 383kw wheel now how many subs do that?

isn't that the same turbo spec as my one? boost response sounds about the same, but at 25psi i'd be around 300kw. was that a 2.0 or 2.5? do you know the head/cam setup?

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not really the same it was 2.1ltr and cant tell the rest customer asked not to but its not that radical im sure you can remember that v8 i did that pulled over 300kw wheel on a stock sized vf36 turbine wheel and hsg and ran a large cover and comp wheel turned a 10.9 again totally against what the artical states.

PS: non of my statements are targeted at you Jon by no means you are just like most that have read it but you'll find a lot of us in the industry know what really goes on, so do Garret'st opposition.

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stop it jon, im almost convinced I need a bigger turbo before my cars even running haha. GTX3071 keeps popping into my head

Steve, have you found a good source for billet wheels yet? got a VF28 here and a P25 housing, was thinking about a big cover with 3inch inlet maybe something that'll get to 280ish kw on a 2.0....for a rainey day maybe

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lol if I were doing it again and gt30 couldn't be fixed that's exactly what I'd be putting on :-)

As a matter of interest and in line with my thinking I believe a gt3582 would spool and deliver every bit the same as at gt3082 on the same 2.0 motor. I'm thinking of drifter500s build before he went stroker. Oh to have $$$ to test

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 funkytown said:

lol if I were doing it again and gt30 couldn't be fixed that's exactly what I'd be putting on :-)

As a matter of interest and in line with my thinking I believe a gt3582 would spool and deliver every bit the same as at gt3082 on the same 2.0 motor. I'm thinking of drifter500s build before he went stroker. Oh to have $$$ to test

Just go in between and put a Holset HX35 on it ;)

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 Koom']

[quote name='funkytown said:

lol if I were doing it again and gt30 couldn't be fixed that's exactly what I'd be putting on :-)

As a matter of interest and in line with my thinking I believe a gt3582 would spool and deliver every bit the same as at gt3082 on the same 2.0 motor. I'm thinking of drifter500s build before he went stroker. Oh to have $$$ to test

/quote]

Just go in between and put a Holset HX35 on it ;)

I Agree ;)

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 gotasuby']

[quote name='funkytown said:

lol if I were doing it again and gt30 couldn't be fixed that's exactly what I'd be putting on :-)

As a matter of interest and in line with my thinking I believe a gt3582 would spool and deliver every bit the same as at gt3082 on the same 2.0 motor. I'm thinking of drifter500s build before he went stroker. Oh to have $$$ to test

/quote]

Just go in between and put a Holset HX35 on it ;)

I Agree ;)

id 3rd that :D

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 gotasuby said:

a turbo that can flow as much as a HX35 can and spool to 25psi by 2700 is in my books not too bad ;D

what turbo is this? ^^

can holset turbos be made to sit in factory loccation with stock up/downpipe flange?

i have only seen them in twisted setup with non subaru uppipe and down..

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