What do I do? Oil cooler and water pump issues

[slystiguy]

So I'm about to drop my new engine into car and I've just realised I've got a 2 outlet water pump and my old engine was a 3 outlet pump. The missing outlet runs along the bottom of the engine and goes to the oil cooler/sandwich plate..

What are my options here?

Do v7 sti engines run a different oil cooler setup? Does anyone have any photos so I can get my head around it.

Car is a 1991 bc5 rs legacy (first gen single turbo ej20g)

Engine is a v7 ej207 with v3 ej20k heads

EDIT - Problem kind of solved below but best to read the full topic and research "oil cooler delete" for yourself

So firstly lets understand the oil to sandwich plate system and what it actually does. An oil to water cooling heating system that utilizes the movement of coolant and oil to transfer heat for both heating and cooling of your engine fluids. On a cold start coolant heats faster than oil and heated water passes through the oil cooler which effectively heats the oil up to it's operating temperature faster. This is useful in colder climates to help reduce engine wear during extreme cold weather environments. When the engine oil reaches full temperature the oil will be a higher temperature than the coolant and the oil cooler system will work as a basic oil cooler.

Now this is where things get a little interesting and the debating begins. Lets discuss why one would remove this cooling system and what effects it "should" have. It's worth noting here before we go on further that this really comes down to a "what is the application situation". Removing the oil cooler should technically lower your coolant temperature and also should raise your oil temperature. How ever theoretically if one was to push the engine to it's absolute limits the heat of the block heat soak would nearly negate this and the temperatures would equalise between to two. Therefore by that logic removal of the factory oil cooling system would be desirable in a race application when combined with an external oil cooler running on a thermostat. You would get the benefits of a slightly cooler coolant system and the oil cooler would reduce engine oil temperatures more than a factory cooler system.

Notes:.

This system is used on more than just the ej20 engine and is also used on other manufactures (such the Honda s2000)

It's worth noting some NA subaru engines do not come with this system.

Some argue that the system is to small to make any real world difference and report little differences when comparing before and after temps and warm up times.

Some argue the heat soak from the block contradicts these statements.

There are many more things to consider with coolant temperature issues before this should really become a real world problem such as - A larger capacity radiator, a lower temperature thermostat, aerodynamics and ducting to the radiator, high flow water pumps, uprated radiator caps and more.

Install/removal notes

You can remove the oil cooling system by unbolting it and replacing with the nipple piece with one out of and old automatic legacy/impreza which comes factory with no oil cooling system. You would also need a 2 outlet water pump or a way to plug the 3 outlet version.

Edited March 14, 2015 by slystiguy

[loner]

I would buy the correct water pump.

[slystiguy]

Not really the answer I was looking for haha. I had the engine built because I don't know how to do those technical jobs. What I need to know is how the v7 sti cooler is setup. I'm searching google but doesn't come up with anything helpful agh

[loner]

But why not just buy the correct pump? Why waste your time coming up with an alternate solution?

[Rosssub]

Plenty of pics of the version 7 setup in my conversion thread, bottom of page one onward:

http://clubsub.org.nz/forum/showthread.php?43004-Rosssub-s-Single-Turbo-Conversion

[slystiguy]

Because swapping out a pump requires me to remove the cambelt. I don't have the tools required to do that job and I've never done a subaru cambelt before. Why would I be here asking for information if it was that easy loner? How about post something helpful and contributing instead of giving me those blunt responses. Thanks Ross, your build has the 3 outlet pump though so not really what I'm after. I guess I should be asking what setups do the 2 outlet water pumps come on and how are they setup? I guess I won't be dropping the engine this weekend *sighs*

[gotasuby]

The 2 outlet are auto. No oil cooler and the other Pope by the oil cooler is blocked off

[slystiguy]

You gotta be kidding me That is **** news

[slystiguy]

Can I reroute it and tee in somewhere and maybe add an actual oil cooler at the same time?

[Guest]

Timings easy if i can do it anyone can im far from mech minded just look on youtube or google meatys timing nasioc. V7 run same coolant/cooler/pump lines as early.

Nz arent so fussy with running stock modine so some people delete it.

[loner]

Not trying to be unhelpful or troll... I just think that in the case of a water pump you need to get the right setup from the

outset... no weird setups, no short cuts. You will appreciate it long term.

[loner]

It's also possible to change the water pump without taking the cambelt off... you just need to prevent the cam wheels and belt from

moving while the tension is off.

[slystiguy]

Why would they put a 2 outlet pump on it?

Edited March 14, 2015 by slystiguy

[Rosssub]

Here's a pic of the block fitting you'll need for the oil cooler return hose:

I've got a GMB pump on mine that was under $100 new from BNT. When's the cambelt due?

[slystiguy]

The engine has been freshly rebuilt. v7 sti bottom end fully refreshened with new rings bearings and seals. v3 sti heads skimmed with New head gaskets new cambelt kit, new water pump new oil pump ect ect. I've replaced a bunch of sensors and steering rack and few other seals ect. Basically giving new life to my old bc5 rs legacy. About the only thing that I didn't replace was the oil cooler, something I missed off the list unfortunately. Now I'll have to order a new cooler and potentially a new pump now. I really don't want to mess with the engine because it then voids any sort of warranty if anything major goes wrong. The whole idea was to have a hassle free engine drop and run it in on the stock ecu and get it tuned later on.

I'm aiming for 200+ kw and hopefully 20+psi (once tuned of course)

Rather frustrated as it should really have been built with the correct water pump and the builder isn't local to me unfortunately so I can't simply take it back or contact him for replacement... I really wonder why he would use that pump though? Surely it would be uncommon to use that style of pump? Or do some people delete the factory oil cooler system?

I could potentially tee in somewhere though?

[Guest]

People do remove it in nz less things to go wrong. Will you run an oil cooler?

[slystiguy]

I was thinking about it, but probably overkill on a street car with the odd track abuse/spirited driving.

When you say delete it do they just plug it off? Would that disrupt water flow in the engine?

[Guest]

Pretty sure it makes no real difference check with rosssub.

[Rosssub]

Blocking the coolant flow to the OEM oil cooler? Shouldn't have any negative effect on coolant flow through the engine. That return coolant port circled in the pic, connects straight to the water jacket surrounding the piston bores. Just means you'll have nothing cooling the oil that the turbo/engine is cooking.

[slystiguy]

So after having a quick read here - http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2054975

it would seem it's ok to block it off. I might get a oil temp and pressure gauge and keep them monitored. Main concern is effectively during winter you have nothing to warm the oil on cold drive, meaning car will take longer to get warm during those small trips and in summer the car will have no extra oil cooling. I doubt the factory cooler really does that much cooling by looking at it. There is a factory part that replaces the oil cooler and nipple with a shorter piece that lets you screw your oil filter straight to the block.

# 15018AA050

I'm a little concerned about disrupting the factory setup but I guess it's that or replace the water pump? I will have to monitor the temps and decide if an oil cooler is warranted during summer/more work. I guess I won't be doing any serious driving for a good few months and by then it will have cooled down a little.

[Guest]

I was under the understanding it was for heating the oil in cool temp areas. I struggle to see that as oil seems to heat up pretty quick in a running engine as opposed to water temp.

Turbos are the main heater in the oil system not the engine. What turbo you going to be running? If its the 18g you dont need water cooling for it.

[loner]

I really think it will be a lot less hassle if you just change the water pump now. Short term pain is better than longer term pain. The

heat exchanger is there for a reason.

[slystiguy]

If anyone has done a oil cooler delete please post up your findings

Running a td05 16g atm. Have yet to find a 6k or 7k ecu so will be running very low boost until tuned ecu is in or I find an ecu that ran it factory(I guess 10psi). I'd like to run the 18g but the front cover is a horrid POS and won't line up for under manifold install. I'd need to either get a new cover or mod a 90 degree cover to accommodate the 18g wheel. I've actually been thinking something twin scroll long term but that's way down on my list at the moment. A lot of guys in America have deleted the oil cooler without issues so for my build it's going to be fine. And not the biggest issue to swap it later compared to swapping it now. A little extra hassle but only easy unbolt this and that sorta work. To do it now means new pump, new cooler and paying someone to remove and reinstall, est at least $400 cost by the time I'm done. For that sorta $$ I can get gauges and oil cooler. I'll think it over while I price up coolers/pumps/delete and decide the best course of action from there.

Edited March 14, 2015 by slystiguy

[WorkshopMgr]

I have a V3 engine with no water pump mondine to oil sandwich plate. Originally going to re-install an oil filter relocation and cooler kit so brought a 2 outlet water pump. Couldn't get the connections to stop leaking so removed the relocation and cooler. No sandwich plate filter now fits direct. Went to Manfeild with it and had no problems so intend to leave it as is now unless I see a reason to change.

My understanding is that the mondine does in fact move warm/hot water and is not a cooler at all. I tend to let mine warm up to operating temperature before any boosting so not worried about it. Both at track day and on the journey there & back oil temp operated at around 92-96 C which is well within operating temp. Oil pressure remained as expected at all times. No water temp issues either.

I don't know about a V7 but won't be changing mine again unless the car gives me a reasons too through the gauges. Do you have gauges for oil pressure & temp to monitor what is happening?

[slystiguy]

The more I read about this stuff the more I want to have an ecu that can data log me stuff. The discussion was very open to all points on Nasioc. I'd love to test all options and put an end to it once and for all. I'll try to sum up my findings with a few rambles. I'll keep this very basic because that's my understanding of it eh.

So firstly lets understand the oil to sandwich plate system and what it actually does. An oil to water cooling heating system that utilizes the movement of coolant and oil to transfer heat for both heating and cooling of your engine fluids. On a cold start coolant heats faster than oil and heated water passes through the oil cooler which effectively heats the oil up to it's operating temperature faster. This is useful in colder climates to help reduce engine wear during extreme cold weather environments. When the engine oil reaches full temperature the oil will be a higher temperature than the coolant and the oil cooler system will work as a basic oil cooler.

Now this is where things get a little interesting and the debating begins. Lets discuss why one would remove this cooling system and what effects it "should" have. It's worth noting here before we go on further that this really comes down to a "what is the application situation". Removing the oil cooler should technically lower your coolant temperature and also should raise your oil temperature. How ever theoretically if one was to push the engine to it's absolute limits the heat of the block heat soak would nearly negate this and the temperatures would equalise between to two. Therefore by that logic removal of the factory oil cooling system would be desirable in a race application when combined with an external oil cooler running on a thermostat. You would get the benefits of a slightly cooler coolant system and the oil cooler would reduce engine oil temperatures more than a factory cooler system.

Notes:.

This system is used on more than just the ej20 engine and is also used on other manufactures (such the Honda s2000)

It's worth noting some NA subaru engines do not come with this system.

Some argue that the system is to small to make any real world difference and report little differences when comparing before and after temps and warm up times.

Some argue the heat soak from the block contradicts these statements.

There are many more things to consider with coolant temperature issues before this should really become a real world problem such as - A larger capacity radiator, a lower temperature thermostat, aerodynamics and ducting to the radiator, high flow water pumps, uprated radiator caps and more.

I might edit that a bit later. Feel free to grammar check and that. Hopefully that helps others understand

Edited March 14, 2015 by slystiguy