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Do I need a Wideband A/F Gauge?


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Hey everyone!

 

Just wanted to first say a huge thank you to everyone who commented on the tinted tailight law post. I didn't respond to everyone but I read all your comments!

 

I was just wondering if I should get a wideband A/F gauge or if it is not really neccessary. My WRX has been custom tuned nicely at approx 240whp.

 

I currently have a boost guage, oil pressure & oil temp and they are all definintely very useful.

 

Is the A/F gauge neccessary? A lot of sites I have read say its essential but mentions more for tuning etc so if I have already been custom tuned, is there any need for this gauge?

 

If so, I was looking at the AEM 30-0300 or the Innovate DB LC2

Edited by Bugeye01WRX
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Waste of time and money really. You're not going to notice mid pull it's off before any damage is done and it's not the kind of gauge you can set up to alarm as it's always changing depending on the AF figure the ECU is aiming for at the time. 
 

Heaps of people feel the need to get them but would probably never notice if the readings were out

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My answer is that it's really only good for looks if it's not wired into the ECU and actually utilised. 

Like, sure you could use it on the road and be able to tell if you're running at 1.0 lambda when cruising but in reality, when you're actually driving it you will not or at least should not be looking at the gauge. 

You also, unless you're logging it, won't be able to tell exactly where in the RPM range at what throttle load the cars at so it's basically a turkey shoot. 

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54 minutes ago, Andy_Mac said:

Waste of time and money really. You're not going to notice mid pull it's off before any damage is done and it's not the kind of gauge you can set up to alarm as it's always changing depending on the AF figure the ECU is aiming for at the time. 
 

Heaps of people feel the need to get them but would probably never notice if the readings were out

 

Cheers that clears that up perfectly :).

 

What would you say the essential gauges are? For me its definitely Boost & Oil Pressure and I really like Oil Temp so I know when I can get on it.

 

Any other gauges that you would consider very important to have?

49 minutes ago, Dairusire said:

My answer is that it's really only good for looks if it's not wired into the ECU and actually utilised. 

Like, sure you could use it on the road and be able to tell if you're running at 1.0 lambda when cruising but in reality, when you're actually driving it you will not or at least should not be looking at the gauge. 

You also, unless you're logging it, won't be able to tell exactly where in the RPM range at what throttle load the cars at so it's basically a turkey shoot. 

 

AHh yup so unless you were basically running a race car and constantly tuning and checking everything then its pointless for road use.

 

Cheers that clears that up!

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5 minutes ago, Bugeye01WRX said:

 

Cheers that clears that up perfectly :).

 

What would you say the essential gauges are? For me its definitely Boost & Oil Pressure and I really like Oil Temp so I know when I can get on it.

 

Any other gauges that you would consider very important to have?

imho, just oil pressure and oil temp. 
Once again, they best serve when actually integrated into your cars ECU, as an ECU will respond instantly where-as you might not even notice. 

Though, Oil temp and oil pressure are in some examples good on track for purposes of not pushing it too far. 
For example, I have oil temp and pressure in my RA, because with the temp it's a lot slower changes, easier to notice over time. Pressure is less about seeing it go to zero because if it goes to zero the damage is done. It's more so about knowing when your oil is too hot and you're loosing pressure because of that, tells you when to button off and give the car a few good low rpm cool down laps at a good cruising speed. 

Boost is another case of really only useful when troubleshooting an issue. Aka, hitting boost cut or the car has gotten sluggish or it's picked up a LOT more power and you need to figure out why. 

Though, it can be useful and for me it has proven so when I've looked at the boost gauge and realised there was 30psi of boost being fed into my stock EJ207. 
It was going REEEEEEALLY good there.

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2 minutes ago, Dairusire said:

imho, just oil pressure and oil temp. 
Once again, they best serve when actually integrated into your cars ECU, as an ECU will respond instantly where-as you might not even notice. 

Though, Oil temp and oil pressure are in some examples good on track for purposes of not pushing it too far. 
For example, I have oil temp and pressure in my RA, because with the temp it's a lot slower changes, easier to notice over time. Pressure is less about seeing it go to zero because if it goes to zero the damage is done. It's more so about knowing when your oil is too hot and you're loosing pressure because of that, tells you when to button off and give the car a few good low rpm cool down laps at a good cruising speed. 

 

Awesome thanks for that!

 

Oh I didn't know that about the Oil Pressure gauge. I always thought it was there so if you lost pressure suddenly you would know instantly and be able to pull over and prevent catastrophic engine failure.

 

So are you saying that when really going hard, if the oil gets TOO hot and becomes too thin then you can lose pressure that way and that is what it is mostly for?

 

What about EGT are they any good or necessary?

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20 minutes ago, Bugeye01WRX said:

 

Awesome thanks for that!

 

Oh I didn't know that about the Oil Pressure gauge. I always thought it was there so if you lost pressure suddenly you would know instantly and be able to pull over and prevent catastrophic engine failure.

 

So are you saying that when really going hard, if the oil gets TOO hot and becomes too thin then you can lose pressure that way and that is what it is mostly for?

 

What about EGT are they any good or necessary?

 

I'm going to stop you here just for this not so quick explanation. It's not to be rude but to really advise you. 

Gauges and sensors are typically a complete waste of time, across the board, if not being used in real time by the ECU. The ECU is doing operations at literally the rate of tens of thousands per second, if not millions. EGTs, oil pressure, oil temp, boost pressure, Wideband, IAT, fuel pressure, ethanol content, fuel temp blah blah I can go on. In short there is absolutely zero chance you will catch something even 1/10th as fast as the ECU can and will. 


If you want to get gauges and sensors and really have it matter? Heres my advice to you. 
Do it once, do it properly.
Get a motorsports ECU (link, haltech, motec, syvecs, holley. Your preference), get all the sensors you want, have them wired into the ECU properly, and if you want them displayed get some CANBUS gauges or get a CANBUS dash cluster which is programable to have everything. 

I say this because it is super easy to spend $1000 on gauges that realistically, won't save your car, engine and end of the day, your money. 

The above is horribly expensive, but sensors save even more expensive components.

 

NOW! To your questions. 


To be honest, if you've lost oil pressure completely and notice it on the gauge it is already too late 99.99% of the time. Even if it hasn't knocked yet there will be major scoring to bearings, cams and other pieces in the engine. So yeah it's more so just noticing when driving around if it's somewhere it's not meant to be. Not enough to trigger engine safety protections but enough that I notice and then check my ECU logs. 

in the case of oil temp, Yeah in my example yes that is predominantly what it's for at least for me, but once again, ECU logging and engine safeties get to that well before I do. Also normally when you've got oil that hot and you're loosing oil pressure you should drop the oil and change it. Overheating oil can and will damage the oil in ways that can then do potential damage to your engine. 

 

 

Though, if you want them for the look, and less about the sensors themselves. 
Knock yourself out. They're cool as sh!t and I've love mine even though they realistically don't do crap for me haha

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27 minutes ago, Dairusire said:

 

I'm going to stop you here just for this not so quick explanation. It's not to be rude but to really advise you. 

Gauges and sensors are typically a complete waste of time, across the board, if not being used in real time by the ECU. The ECU is doing operations at literally the rate of tens of thousands per second, if not millions. EGTs, oil pressure, oil temp, boost pressure, Wideband, IAT, fuel pressure, ethanol content, fuel temp blah blah I can go on. In short there is absolutely zero chance you will catch something even 1/10th as fast as the ECU can and will. 


If you want to get gauges and sensors and really have it matter? Heres my advice to you. 
Do it once, do it properly.
Get a motorsports ECU (link, haltech, motec, syvecs, holley. Your preference), get all the sensors you want, have them wired into the ECU properly, and if you want them displayed get some CANBUS gauges or get a CANBUS dash cluster which is programable to have everything. 

I say this because it is super easy to spend $1000 on gauges that realistically, won't save your car, engine and end of the day, your money. 

The above is horribly expensive, but sensors save even more expensive components.

 

NOW! To your questions. 


To be honest, if you've lost oil pressure completely and notice it on the gauge it is already too late 99.99% of the time. Even if it hasn't knocked yet there will be major scoring to bearings, cams and other pieces in the engine. So yeah it's more so just noticing when driving around if it's somewhere it's not meant to be. Not enough to trigger engine safety protections but enough that I notice and then check my ECU logs. 

in the case of oil temp, Yeah in my example yes that is predominantly what it's for at least for me, but once again, ECU logging and engine safeties get to that well before I do. Also normally when you've got oil that hot and you're loosing oil pressure you should drop the oil and change it. Overheating oil can and will damage the oil in ways that can then do potential damage to your engine. 

 

 

Though, if you want them for the look, and less about the sensors themselves. 
Knock yourself out. They're cool as sh!t and I've love mine even though they realistically don't do crap for me haha

 

Oh dude don't think you were being rude this is very helpful!! I wouldn't think you were being rude!!

 

AHhhh riiiight! I've seen Link ECU mentioned before seems a very popular aftermarket one.

 

So basically, you get an aftermarket ECU and then get any sensors (A/F, boost, Oil etc) and they get wired into the ECU so the ECU can read the sensors at extremely fast rates?

 

And then if you want to see the data you use the canbus gauges?

 

Is that right? What are Canbus gauges specifically??

 

haha I do love the look but I prefer function! I'll definintely do this when I get an STI,

 

I don't know if I want to spend more money on a WRX.

 

But when I get an STI, I have a beautiful list to do (including Midnight purple paint) and I will definintely do the gauges properly!

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Believe it or not, Subaru built your car with a wideband, narrowband, oil pressure, oil temp (I think?) sensor and wired them all into your factory ECU.

 

As above, gauges are eye candy at best. Why bother?

 

You can't use CANBUS gauges because you don't have a CANBUS. If you have an aftermarket ECU with CANBUS you can get some - CANBUS is like a data network for cars. Then the gauges are just a display for some network data; they don't have to be connected directly to the sensors or anything.

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3 minutes ago, boon said:

Believe it or not, Subaru built your car with a wideband, narrowband, oil pressure, oil temp (I think?) sensor and wired them all into your factory ECU.

 

As above, gauges are eye candy at best. Why bother?

 

You can't use CANBUS gauges because you don't have a CANBUS. If you have an aftermarket ECU with CANBUS you can get some - CANBUS is like a data network for cars. Then the gauges are just a display for some network data; they don't have to be connected directly to the sensors or anything.

 

Ahh right! What does it cost to have a setup of Canbus gauges and aftermarket ECU roughly?

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I'm gonna say you might get change from $5k?

 

Edit edit edit edit: What do you actually want the gauges for? If its to protect your car then don't bother with gauges, your ECU will do a better job than you ever can. If you want some shiny things with blue LEDS buy some $30 ones from Aliexpress.

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11 minutes ago, boon said:

Believe it or not, Subaru built your car with a wideband, narrowband, oil pressure, oil temp (I think?) sensor and wired them all into your factory ECU.

 

As above, gauges are eye candy at best. Why bother?

 

You can't use CANBUS gauges because you don't have a CANBUS.


Narrowband for sure on all models. Wideband only on newer generation and some legacys? I think? Don't quote me. 

Oil pressure yes, but it's a switch sensor, not a pressure sensor. So it'll tell you 'yes' there's pressure but what that pressure is, it will not tell you. Again, referencing earlier models. Oil temp at least in the GC, GDs there is not. There might be in later models, but again. I'm pretty well shoehorned into earlier models. 

 

As for CANBUS, like I was talking about in reference to aftermarket ECU's eg Link and the like, they come with CANBUS (most do). That's what I was referencing where you can use CANBUS gauges or a Dash cluster, like a haltech IC7 or whatever the link one is etc.
It's how I'm running the Link CANBUS wideband and soon to be Haltech EGT sensors and maybe a dash if I'm feeling spicy (I probably won't they're horribly expensive). 

 

8 minutes ago, Bugeye01WRX said:

 

Ahh right! What does it cost to have a setup of Canbus gauges and aftermarket ECU roughly?

 

The answer is yes, that piece of string is long. 
What I'm eluding to here is if you want them all, fine do it right. Otherwise the best options? Just spend the money elsewhere. 

 

Great tyres, lighter wheels and better suspension with good brake pads can be absolutely transformative.

Or you could do nothing? Save the money? 
I kind of wish someone told me that when I started this whole thing with my car.  


End of the day, your car. Your choice. Your money. 
If you're happy with what you've done, who am I to tell you otherwise. 
 

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6 minutes ago, boon said:

I'm gonna say you might get change from $5k?

 

Edit edit edit edit: What do you actually want the gauges for? If its to protect your car then don't bother with gauges, your ECU will do a better job than you ever can. If you want some shiny things with blue LEDS buy some $30 ones from Aliexpress.

 

Yeah it was to protect the car. So if you have a link ECU and everything is wired in correctly are you saying that even running CANBUS gauges are not neccessary for you to see what is going as the ECU will take care of everything?

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Dairusire said:


Narrowband for sure on all models. Wideband only on newer generation and some legacys? I think? Don't quote me. 

Oil pressure yes, but it's a switch sensor, not a pressure sensor. So it'll tell you 'yes' there's pressure but what that pressure is, it will not tell you. Again, referencing earlier models. Oil temp at least in the GC, GDs there is not. There might be in later models, but again. I'm pretty well shoehorned into earlier models. 

 

As for CANBUS, like I was talking about in reference to aftermarket ECU's eg Link and the like, they come with CANBUS (most do). That's what I was referencing where you can use CANBUS gauges or a Dash cluster, like a haltech IC7 or whatever the link one is etc.
It's how I'm running the Link CANBUS wideband and soon to be Haltech EGT sensors and maybe a dash if I'm feeling spicy (I probably won't they're horribly expensive). 

 

 

The answer is yes, that piece of string is long. 
What I'm eluding to here is if you want them all, fine do it right. Otherwise the best options? Just spend the money elsewhere. 

 

Great tyres, lighter wheels and better suspension with good brake pads can be absolutely transformative.

Or you could do nothing? Save the money? 
I kind of wish someone told me that when I started this whole thing with my car.  


End of the day, your car. Your choice. Your money. 
If you're happy with what you've done, who am I to tell you otherwise. 
 

 

Thank you very much for everything! Im definintely going to be putting my time into reading all about aftermarket ECUs and everything you have said to really get a good grasp of it.

 

Haha yeah Im about where IM happy spending money on a WRX. I've got great tyres on there they were about $1,600 for 4 however my rims are hot garbage (just some average 17 inch DTMs that look like s***) and I'm on stock suspension and brakes.

 

As much as I'd love to upgrade the suspension and brakes, firstly I have no idea what a decent upgrade would be for a WRX and second, don't even know if it is worth it for a GD Bugeye WRX.

 

But if you think it is or have ideas let me know!!

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As above - by the time you look at your gauge and go "oooh that's not right" you'll have the audible alert of your big ends going NOGGA NOGGA to confirm your low oil pressure.

 

The oil pressure plummets because the engine has died, not the other way around, most of the time. Very very very rarely the oil pump dies and you go OH NO and turn the motor off but usually your crank oversizes your rod bearings and then the oil pressure plummets cos it's all pissing out the sides of the bottom end journals.

 

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I’ve just gone for a simple 52mm CAN multi gauge in mine. You don't need a whole row of gauges to display what you want once you go digital. 

Set up is easy and cost was somewhere under a grand but you're relying on the sensors you've already installed for the ECU fail safes which is where the bigger cost is.

 

I don't look at it as much as I should but it can be setup with warnings for any of the available parameters and multiple pages of different layouts. It's mainly used for trouble shooting issues when I can't be bothered dragging the laptop out to plug into the car. 

 

50504242903_790586f9b3_b.jpg

 

 

The other way to go is to get a spare android phone/tablet setup somewhere on the dash permantely connected to the OBD2 port with one of various apps running whatever parameters you want to see. 

The one I used in my old legacy was super useful but was only supported for a few vehicle models. It could be setup to do logging and snapshots of all available parameters whenever a knock threshold has been past. 

 

98962133-9E92-40B5-AF29-67CBEB8B6AD1_zpsmqejjtnl

 

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On 11/03/2022 at 10:40 PM, Dairusire said:

Get a motorsports ECU (link, haltech, motec, syvecs, holley. Your preference), get all the sensors you want, have them wired into the ECU properly, and if you want them displayed get some CANBUS gauges

+1

I went for a gauge art can gauge (same as the link rebranded one they sell now), all sensors mentioned above bar egt. I barely look at it.

Generally leave it on oil temp, mainly to see when its up to temp. Rest is controlled/protected by ecu.

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2 hours ago, pl0x said:

+1

I went for a gauge art can gauge (same as the link rebranded one they sell now), all sensors mentioned above bar egt. I barely look at it.

Generally leave it on oil temp, mainly to see when its up to temp. Rest is controlled/protected by ecu.

 

Where do you have yours sitting? I hated mine as it was way too dim and would reflect literally everything making it almost unreadable, the contrast and brightness of the Banks one is miles ahead

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Pretty much same position as yours, just attached to the pillar. I haven't noticed it being dim or reflective. I have mine displaying 2 settings at once as the 4 settings per screen is a bit small for my not so great eyesight

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On 12/03/2022 at 11:25 AM, Andy_Mac said:

 

I’ve just gone for a simple 52mm CAN multi gauge in mine. You don't need a whole row of gauges to display what you want once you go digital. 

Set up is easy and cost was somewhere under a grand but you're relying on the sensors you've already installed for the ECU fail safes which is where the bigger cost is.

 

I don't look at it as much as I should but it can be setup with warnings for any of the available parameters and multiple pages of different layouts. It's mainly used for trouble shooting issues when I can't be bothered dragging the laptop out to plug into the car. 

 

50504242903_790586f9b3_b.jpg

 

 

The other way to go is to get a spare android phone/tablet setup somewhere on the dash permantely connected to the OBD2 port with one of various apps running whatever parameters you want to see. 

The one I used in my old legacy was super useful but was only supported for a few vehicle models. It could be setup to do logging and snapshots of all available parameters whenever a knock threshold has been past. 

 

98962133-9E92-40B5-AF29-67CBEB8B6AD1_zpsmqejjtnl

 

 

Wow that looks bloody amazing!! So that is all wired into the ECU that data you are reading there?

 

That is really damn cool to know thanks so much Ill definitely add this to the list of things to do when I get an STI.

 

Don't think Ill bother with the WRX hahaha :D

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13 hours ago, Bugeye01WRX said:

 

Wow that looks bloody amazing!! So that is all wired into the ECU that data you are reading there?

 

That is really damn cool to know thanks so much Ill definitely add this to the list of things to do when I get an STI.

 

Don't think Ill bother with the WRX hahaha :D

 

Yeah the STI setup just needs a single pair cable from the aftermarket ECU, the Legacy one connected to the obd2 port for the factory ECU with a tactrix cable and OTG cable for the tablet

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