start only with clutch depressed possible?

[EJ20T]

+1 for the clutch in start being a pain in the ass

[Swindog]

should always run your car down before turning it off, turb or not. Even if its a slow drive round the block

[B4 2000]

 EJ20T said:

+1 for the clutch in start being a pain in the ass

gotta love that i don't need to press the clutch to start my car

[Guest boostin]

I have a clutch switch fitted to my wagon to enable the cruise control to still work after the manual conversion. It has the added bonus of being slightly more secure as people don't expect an old BF5 to need the clutch pedal down to start. Yes its a bit of a pain, but the ability to use the cruise control and the security benefits outweigh it.

And I leave it in neutral when parked too, unless on a steep hill.

And a -1 vote for turbo timers. I hate them!!

[G-unit]

i have the clutch thing, ive always started my cars with clutch in so doesnt worry me much, turbo timer never gets used lol

[Joker]

ditto - my timer is good for when i get in the car and remember i have left my wallet in side etc... (starting car uses more fuel than idling 30 secs)

[G-unit]

 JoKer said:

ditto - my timer is good for when i get in the car and remember i have left my wallet in side etc... (starting car uses more fuel than idling 30 secs)

tried that in mine the other day but then it shut off when put the key back in haha

[EJ20T]

 B4 2000']

[quote name='EJ20T said:

+1 for the clutch in start being a pain in the ass

/quote]

gotta love that i don't need to press the clutch to start my car

im going to disable mine in the near future

[Guest]

 log1call said:

The start signal to the ecu is just to tell the ecu it should stabilise the ignition timing and revs because at cranking speed the cam and crank signals are too irregular to be useful.

The cars can start without the start signal to the ecu but it's a bit hit and miss and if the battery is a bit flat and/or the cranking speed a bit low they are more likely to not start, but no signal doesn't nessicarily mean they won't start.

If you want your car to not start you want that switch wired in series with the starter signal going to the starter.

cam/crank and coolant are the ONLY sensors used to for fire up

Wire in clutch switch in series with trigger side of starter relay earth (then no high current will be thru clutch switch as is with V6 etc set up's

[Guest boostin]

 Ichi Ban']

[quote name='log1call said:

The start signal to the ecu is just to tell the ecu it should stabilise the ignition timing and revs because at cranking speed the cam and crank signals are too irregular to be useful.

The cars can start without the start signal to the ecu but it's a bit hit and miss and if the battery is a bit flat and/or the cranking speed a bit low they are more likely to not start, but no signal doesn't nessicarily mean they won't start.

If you want your car to not start you want that switch wired in series with the starter signal going to the starter.

/quote]

cam/crank and coolant are the ONLY sensors used to for fire up

Wire in clutch switch in series with trigger side of starter relay earth (then no high current will be thru clutch switch as is with V6 etc set up's

Whats the idea behind the V6 clutch switch Rick? So you don't launch it up over the curb when starting? Or is there more to it?

[log1call]

 Ichi Ban']

[quote name='log1call said:

The start signal to the ecu is just to tell the ecu it should stabilise the ignition timing and revs because at cranking speed the cam and crank signals are too irregular to be useful.

The cars can start without the start signal to the ecu but it's a bit hit and miss and if the battery is a bit flat and/or the cranking speed a bit low they are more likely to not start, but no signal doesn't nessicarily mean they won't start.

If you want your car to not start you want that switch wired in series with the starter signal going to the starter.

/quote]

cam/crank and coolant are the ONLY sensors used to for fire up

Wire in clutch switch in series with trigger side of starter relay earth (then no high current will be thru clutch switch as is with V6 etc set up's

Hi Itchi,

Don't want to disagree with the master but... The start signal also influences the mixture at startup.

My idea about disregarding the cam and crank sensor came from this quote

"Signals from the cam and crank angle

sensors are received by the ECM. At

engine start the ignition timing is fixed

at 10 degrees BTDC. After engine start,

ignition timing is influenced by the

mass air flow meter, coolant temperature,

knock sensor and engine load."

That comes from page twelve of http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/Fuel.pdf I might have missunderstood it though. Perhaps the lack of revs causes the fixed timing? Can you confirm or point me to any other reading material?

Cheers.

[WRXER]

 G-unit said:

i have the clutch thing, ive always started my cars with clutch in so doesnt worry me much, turbo timer never gets used lol

I was about to say the the same, did it today without realising.... then had a think about it and realised I did it lol

[Guest]

 log1call']

[quote name='log1call said:

The start signal to the ecu is just to tell the ecu it should stabilise the ignition timing and revs because at cranking speed the cam and crank signals are too irregular to be useful.

The cars can start without the start signal to the ecu but it's a bit hit and miss and if the battery is a bit flat and/or the cranking speed a bit low they are more likely to not start, but no signal doesn't nessicarily mean they won't start.

If you want your car to not start you want that switch wired in series with the starter signal going to the starter.

/quote]

Hi Itchi,

Don't want to disagree with the master but... The start signal also influences the mixture at startup.

My idea about disregarding the cam and crank sensor came from this quote

"Signals from the cam and crank angle

sensors are received by the ECM. At

engine start the ignition timing is fixed

at 10 degrees BTDC. After engine start,

ignition timing is influenced by the

mass air flow meter, coolant temperature,

knock sensor and engine load."

That comes from page twelve of http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/Fuel.pdf I might have missunderstood it though. Perhaps the lack of revs causes the fixed timing? Can you confirm or point me to any other reading material?

Cheers.

yes ignition timing is fixed, but ecu need to know where the engine positional rotation is to allow correct igntion timing for start

try disconnecting as cam/crank sensor and see if you get fire up...

also when coolant temp fails, and logs in memory ecu sets start temp to 60deg , hence no start when vehcile cold (ie under 10deg) as no enrichment

(later 32 tooth crank sprocket set ups will start and run with out cam sensor , but with fixed timing)

An engineer at FHI discussed start sequence with me, for diagnostic use

early cam/crank and coolant only use for start

late crank and coolant only for start

cam/crank and coolant are the ONLY sensors used to for fire up

Wire in clutch switch in series with trigger side of starter relay earth (then no high current will be thru clutch switch as is with V6 etc set up's

[log1call]

Hi Ichi,

thanks for the responce.

So what does tell the ecu to fix the timing at start up?

I also understood that the start enrichment came from the start input to the ecu... can you throw any light on how that works? I'm talking regular start up whether hot or cold.

[EJ20T]

 boostin']

[quote name='log1call said:

The start signal to the ecu is just to tell the ecu it should stabilise the ignition timing and revs because at cranking speed the cam and crank signals are too irregular to be useful.

The cars can start without the start signal to the ecu but it's a bit hit and miss and if the battery is a bit flat and/or the cranking speed a bit low they are more likely to not start, but no signal doesn't nessicarily mean they won't start.

If you want your car to not start you want that switch wired in series with the starter signal going to the starter.

/quote]

cam/crank and coolant are the ONLY sensors used to for fire up

Wire in clutch switch in series with trigger side of starter relay earth (then no high current will be thru clutch switch as is with V6 etc set up's

Whats the idea behind the V6 clutch switch Rick? So you don't launch it up over the curb when starting? Or is there more to it?

evo 7 on gets this shitty 'feature' too, i to havnt a clue why.

[Guest]

Its a safety feature

But can be by passed, easily if you dont like it

[Guest]

 log1call said:

Hi Ichi,

thanks for the responce.

So what does tell the ecu to fix the timing at start up?

I also understood that the start enrichment came from the start input to the ecu... can you throw any light on how that works? I'm talking regular start up whether hot or cold.

unsure bout what allows fixed timing ,can check with FHI contact, I'd say start signal, but would only be guessing.

Intitial fuel load input is rpm and coolant based only ( all other sensors ignored )

[log1call]

Bugger.

Well, for what it's worth, this is what I'm basing my theory on...

From a subaru training pdf called "Fuel injection and engine managment",

page fifteen....

The amount of fuel injected or duration is

determined by the following:

BASIC DURATION + CORRECTION FACTORS +

VOLTAGE CORRECTION

Basic duration is determined by comparing QA

and engine speed.

Correction factors include:

Start increment This perhaps?

Coolant temperature

After start

Full increment

Acceleration

Air, fuel coefficient

Voltage correction compensates for the injectors

time lag affected by battery voltage.

PDF availiable here... http://cid-4ca3c3459aaa7f7f.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/.Public?uc=1&isFromRichUpload=1

[Guest]

QA = Quantity of air

AFM is ignored during start up due to low air flow, to prove this, disconnect AFM, car will still start normally but then stall

Thought we were talking about start up

your data is correct, once then engine is running

the start increment must be a correction factor to stabilise engine with extra fuel

(this is the same as Link ECU also)

[Treecrusher]

I hate the clutch start thing. Have thought about disabling it, but it might fool some would-be thief one day so I leave it alone.

If you accidently start a car while it is in gear I suggest you walk yourself down to the AA and hand your licence in

If you want to add some sort of kill switch I can think of less annoying and more discrete places for it than under the clutch pedal. And better wires to disable than the starter relay (I'm sure a thief knows how to clutch start a car) something like a main power wire to the ecu or something.

[log1call]

Oh ok, it's the Afm that's ignored, I knew one of them was not efficient at cranking speed and presumed/thought i'd read it was the crank and cam for some reason.

Cheers for that ichi. Nice to chat with some one that doesn't get gnarled if you question them about what they said. I like to get the right info and some buggers just have a real bad attitude if you question anything.

[Guest]

 log1call said:

Oh ok, it's the Afm that's ignored, I knew one of them was not efficient at cranking speed and presumed/thought i'd read it was the crank and cam for some reason.

Cheers for that ichi. Nice to chat with some one that doesn't get gnarled if you question them about what they said. I like to get the right info and some buggers just have a real bad attitude if you question anything.

Sweet as, nice also to chat with someone who knows plenty about "our rides"

my moto- I dont know everything !, if I dont know, ask or find out thru testing, learn something new everyday !, Subaru's Rock !

[pl0x]

 Ichi Ban said:

Its a safety feature

But can be by passed, easily if you dont like it

not going to screw anything else up? telling it the clutch is pushed in all the time?

or is it only used for starting?