Oil pump shaft & torque converter assembly problems

[mikey]

I'm replacing my BH Legacy 250T engine with another one, everything has gone swimmingly except I cant get the torque converter back in the ruddy tranny! I've been trying all day and am totally stuck.

Currently I have the Torque Converter, with the oil pump shaft attached, I slide it over the input shaft but can't get it fully seated. It feels like it's mating with the input shaft and the other bigger one, but it doesn't feel like the oil pump shaft is seating properly.

Does anyone know what to do?

I'm doing the whole thing with the tranny in the car.

Cheers guys.

[Guest boostin]

Make sure the input shaft is fully back first. You'll need the TC out to check that.

[mikey]

Hmmm, the input shaft feels properly seated, it doesn't budge and I've not taken it out so I assume it's OK.

[Guest boostin]

Just keep turning the TC and pushing it back then. It will drop into the pump eventually.

Check the distance from the edge of the flex plate to the back face of the engine. The TC pokes out of the trans this much.

[mikey]

I've been doing that until my hands are raw, wiggling and jiggling hoping it'll drop it but it doesn't seem to want to. I must've tried for 3 hours all up.

Just to make sure I'm talking about the right thing, the oil pump shaft which is attached to the back of the TC has the two square notches and circlip which mates with square cut-outs on the back of the TC and it has a seal ring near the other end, and two flat sides which I presume slots into something at the other end, or in my case doesn't!

I hoped I was missing something and there'd be a nugget of info which'd sort it, but maybe not.

If there's nothing I'm missing maybe it'll happen for me tomorrow. Otherwise I was thinking I may have to take the TC casing off the tranny and then slide it in and put the TC casing back on around it? But that sounds like a lot of hard work at this stage!

Cheers for your help.

[Guest boostin]

Where are you?

It sounds like you're doing it right. Try pulling the converter back slightly before twisting it. You may be turning the pump at the same time.

[mikey]

Good to hear I'm not doing anything daft!

Yeah, I wondered about whether I was turning the pump so tried pulling out slightly, turning and then pushing.

I'm in Mt. Eden.

[log1call]

Is the torque convertor still on the bck of the motor? Or am I reading this wrong?

You need the torque convertor in the box then fit the motor up to the box, then pull the torque convertor forwards about ten mills to the flexiplate.

If you have been trying to get the motor and torque convertor in at the same time it is likely you wil have damaged the seal. I'd replace it now if there is any doubt about it.

[mikey]

I got the Torque Converter back in. It wasn't the oil pump shaft at all, the problem was with the input shaft / TC being slightly burred on the spline. It needed some not-so-light taps to get it to slide in to the TC properly.

Although, it's interesting that 'log1call' says "pull the torque converter forwards about ten mills to the flexiplate", that scares me. I didn't need to do that, and now I'm worried that the oil pump shaft isn't all the way in.

The engine is currently in the car but I'm hooking up the rest of the engine tonight so I guess I'll find out soon enough. Maybe I'll back off the bell housing nuts and rotate things a few times before I button it up. Hopefully it'll then seat the oil pump shaft correctly.

Why-oh-why does the Haynes manual not have a step in the engine removal process that says "Whatever you do, don't let the TC fall out"?

Thank you all for your help. I'll let you know what happens tonight.

[Guest boostin]

If the TC can spin with the engine bolted up then its sweet.

[mikey]

Yeah it can, so, fingers crossed I guess!

[Guest keltik]

 mikey said:

Why-oh-why does the Haynes manual not have a step in the engine removal process that says "Whatever you do, don't let the TC fall out"?

Every American Subaru forum seems to have that post/thread on it. Never had the problem myself

[mikey]

Yes, thanks Keltik, if only I'd had the good sense to read all the forum threads about not letting the TC fall out before it happened.

Anyhoo, I put the whole thing back together last night and the new/old engine is running sweet as! There's a small valve tick which I'll try and track down once I find the time. But other than that, and the copious amount of time wasted getting the TC on, my first ever engine replacement has been a success.

So for anyone in the Internets who can't get their TC on, it could be a burred spline on the main shaft or in the TC. It's not likely to actually be the oil pump shaft; that's quite easy to seat with the usual pushing/turning motion everyone raves about these days.

Thanks everyone for your help, esp boostin.

[mikey]

I may have found the cause of the tick. I suspect I've done something to the TC/front pump.

I found this on the 'net:

Unbolt the converter.....shove it back, crank it up, see if the noise is still there.

If the noise is gone, see if you have TOO MUCH gap between the flywheel and the converter. More than 1/4 inch could cause the pump gears to knock if the converter is pulled out too far from the pump.

But....the most likely cause, IF the noise is gone when shoving the converter back, IS......you crushed the pump when installing the tranny into the vehicle because of NOT having the converter pushed back into the pump all the way before bolting the tranny up.

Anywhoooo.....from experience, that's the most likely cause of a knock noise when a DIY'r installs a tranny and the flywheel IS good, AND........the noise WAS NOT there before the repair.

I suspect the initial install of the engine, before working out the TC wasn't all the way in, has either damaged the front pump or bent the flex plate.

I guess I'll probably just ignore it and hope it doesn't lead to total fail.

[Guest boostin]

I can't say I've heard of that one before!

[mikey]

After driving the car for a couple of days I know a little more about the tick. It only happens when the engine is under load; either accelerating, or in drive with your foot on the brake. It ticks in relation to the engine revs, not road speed. It sounds like it's coming from the TC/tranny area.

The front pump must be engaged since the tranny hasn't seized, but that's not to say it wasn't damaged by cack-handedly bolting up the engine with the TC not seated. However, since the TC wasn't even on the main shaft at that stage I'd say it's not likely as the pump-shaft wouldn't've been close to engaged either.

I wonder if it's the TC itself. It's hurts to admit it but I was pretty brutal with the TC at one point. Once I realised the TC wasn't engaging the main shaft, presumably because of the burred spline. I pulled the main shaft out of the tranny, took it and the TC to the bench, tapped the main shaft into the TC. Then tried to get the main shaft back out.... This is where it got brutal, I banged the fook out of the TC whilst holding the main shaft until it came apart. Let's not dwell on this point too much....

The outer spline inside the TC which mates to the main shaft is designed to float a little. But beating the crap out of the TC whilst hanging it from it's main shaft could easily have damaged that floating outer spline. Which could be the cause of the tick. Which'd presumably mean I'd have to pull the engine out again and replace it with a non-brutalised one.

So.... it could be the TC itself. I'm not completely ruling out the front pump, but think it's less likely.

When I get the time, I'll disconnect the flex plate and confirm that it's not the engine ticking. Then I guess my next step will be getting a new TC from pick-a-part and dropping that in. Presumably by removing the engine all over again *sigh*

[Guest boostin]

You may well be right. One issue I see is starting the engine with the TC not bolted to the flex plate. The starter drives the converter.

[mikey]

I'm an idiot; of course I wont be able to start the engine without the flex plate bolted up!

[mikey]

Yep, you're right there. I've only removed it twice but already I'm sure I'll be a lot quicker. Esp. since the last time I had to swap the intake manifold and all the electrics from one engine to the other. This time'll be a lot quicker.

Only really annoying thing is hiring an engine hoist. Maybe I'll check out TradeYou.