MSNZ and Latest on Leaded Fuels

[Joker]

 

The leaded fuel debate is alive and well and, judging by the enquiry we've had over the past week, it's clear that there is a lot of misinformation and accusation circulating amongst Motorsport New Zealand members.

A little history; in 2006 it was signalled by the Executive that the sport would move from leaded fuels to unleaded fuels in July 2010. At that time there was a belief, among members, that an alternative to leaded fuel would be found; this has not eventuated.

In the absence of an alternative, Motorsport New Zealand implemented an exemption process, which allows cars with CODs to run leaded fuel.

At the 2010 Annual General Council Meeting a remit was moved and seconded to reinstate Avgas. This remit was defeated, giving a clear mandate for the Executive to exclude Avgas after 1 July 2010. At that time it was also decided that cars would be assessed for exemption on a case-by-case basis.

The Executive has been heavily lobbied to ignore the ruling and allow Avgas back into Schedule A. To do this would make a mockery of the democratic process, which is the foundation of our organisation.

AGCM decisions are binding and the Executive must implement them.

The debate continued at last weekend's Executive meeting and concluded the following:

- The Executive recognises that there is currently no suitable alternative for cars that must run leaded fuel.

- Exemptions would be made on a vehicle-by-vehicle basis and log books notated by Motorsport New Zealand to reflect the level of exemption.

- Exemptions would be based on the type of engine a car uses rather that the eligibility aspects, thus exemptions would not just apply to COD cars.

- Once an application for exemption is made and proof of application has been received, a vehicle will be considered exempt until such time as MSNZ officials assess it and rule one way or another.

While these directives will not suit everyone, the Executive felt it was the fairest way of alleviating many of the concerns among members.

To apply for exemption, members must write to Motorsport New Zealand stating the vehicle's log book number and reason for exemption. Once a vehicle is assessed, it may receive a permanent or temporary exemption.

- Permanent exemptions will be given to vehicles deemed to be unable to run on anything other than leaded fuel until a suitable alternative is available.

- Temporary exemptions will be given to vehicles which currently run on leaded fuel but can in future be reconfigured for unleaded or E85 fuels.

I hope this clarifies the issue for all members and gives you greater certainty about the eligibility of your car to compete in MSNZ sanctioned events.

Shayne Harris

President

[Guest loren]

great new name man. very fitting.

[Joker]

will do almost anything for a dare!

I promise quantity not quality

[Guest]

 Aerosolized Faeces said:

will do almost anything for a dare!

I promise quantity not quality

hahaha, thats beautiful. just had to quote it to keep a record of the name

-smurff

[Guest]

Why doesnt MNZ revert everyone to E85 biofuel like the have in aussie? Should just be made standard for everyone green NZ an stuff right???

[madmike]

 Subtle RS said:

Why doesnt MNZ revert everyone to E85 biofuel like the have in aussie? Should just be made standard for everyone green NZ an stuff right???

Because not all of us can afford E85,...

[Guest]

I meant as the standard for full time trackies...

[Guest]

Although my uncle and I are running 110oct in his 202 streetstock at waikaraka...unleaded base....

[madmike]

 Subtle RS said:

I meant as the standard for full time trackies...

Because not all of us can afford to run E85........

[madmike]

bit of info stolen from SS200 site..

Since it is a bit of a hot topic all over motorsport at the moment I will post up some of the info I have.

This info I have been supplied by one of the guys who runs in one our our classes. I believe it was done on a 13B Turbo rotary motor, but similar may apply to all cars.

In September/October last year we did some dyno and track testing with E85. The following is what we discovered. I

1) Power increase; in our situation a power gain of around 5% was achieved over avgas. For other cars where the ignition advance is more limited by detonation a greater power increase would be achievable.

2) Earlier boost pressure. However the down side of this is that it aggravates any boost creep problems. Also for the same boost control settings there was an increase in boost (so the settings had to be decreased to achieve the same boost level)

3) Lower engine temperatures. On track testing showed the engine temps were brought right down to the thermostats temp and was almost operating too cold. We would look at either changing the low temp competition thermostat to a standard higher temp item or look at blocking of some of the air to the radiator if we were to continue with E85.

4) A drop in exhaust gas temperature.

5) In our situation the optimum air/fuel ratios required around 50% more fuel with E85 for full power. For part throttle around 30-40% more fuel was required. This means that the injectors, fuel pump and fuel system had to cope with 50% more fuel delivery. On track fuel usage increased by around 30% (as the engine is not operating at full power 100% of the time).

6) Greater ignition system demand. If your current ignition system is boarder line with petrol it may have to be upgraded.

7) There were some other tuning considerations including cold starting.

Build up of fuel in the sump and accumulation of fuel in the oil breather catch tank with E85.

E85 is less volatile than petrol meaning that it takes a higher temperature to make it evaporate. More fuel enters the sump with blowby gases due to the fact that more is used and also under cold start and while the engine is warming up. The engine and engine oil needs to be above 78C to get the E85 to boil of and leave the sump at a reasonable rate (this is compounded by the fact that the fuel makes the engine run cooler). Also once it does leave the sump it condenses in the cooler catch can and builds up in the can.

9) It burns with a completely invisible flame.

10) Effect on fuel system materials. Counter to some info out there it does not attack aluminum. It does go wild on Teflon paste thread sealers ˆ it cleans this out of any treads & mixes with the fuel, and then blocks any strainers and filters (normal thread tape is ok to use). Being alcohol it is a very effective cleaner ˆ this causes problems in that any trash and gunk is cleaned out of the fuel system then mixing with the fuel which then blocks strainers and filters. In our situation it blocked the strainers for the intakes of the fuel pumps causing them to cavitate and drop fuel delivery. This happened once on the dyno and twice during track running (this was in addition to the incident with the thread sealer).

11) It attracts moisture ˆ extra consideration is needed for the engines winter storage and the fuels shelf life.

12) Cost per litre. The brand that we were using cost $3.06 (incl gst) per litre when purchased in 20L tins and $2.94 (incl gst) when purchased in 200L drums. OSCA have priced E85 from Gull at around $1.60 /L (not sure if this includes gst) but they have to buy 20 x 200L drums each purchase to get this price. GTRNZ are offering 200L drums at $2.36/L (not sure if this includes gst). None of these prices includes freight. The sharpest freight prices we could find were $83 (incl gst) to get a single 200L drum down from the north island and $60 (incl gst) to get 4 x 20L tins down. So add around 40C/L to get a 200L down.

The OSCA price was including GST and the freight price is less than $50.00 per drum ($0.25 per litre)into ChCh.

13) Availability at short notice?

[Guest loren]

awesome. thanks mike. 9 is a bit scary.

[5UBZRO]

 madmike']

[quote name='Subtle RS said:

I meant as the standard for full time trackies...

/quote]

Because not all of us can afford to run E85........

second that...

[madmike]

 loren said:

awesome. thanks mike. 9 is a bit scary.

Ahh YEAH!!!

Some of them sound nice.. But the cost of an aftermarket ECU and tuning required is very scary to guys who don't have the budget to do it..

[5UBZRO]

 loren said:

awesome. thanks mike. 9 is a bit scary.

seen a minsprint on fire in the pits at waikaraka a few years ago, looked funny watching it from where we were, looked like the crew were throwing powder etc at nothing.

[Guest]

 5UBZRO']

[quote name='loren said:

awesome. thanks mike. 9 is a bit scary.

/quote]

seen a minsprint on fire in the pits at waikaraka a few years ago, looked funny watching it from where we were, looked like the crew were throwing powder etc at nothing.

yea the methanol is dodgy down there on a real calm nite when ure under a car you can feel the thicker meth soaked air around you, that and dust can make for a nasty explosion/flash flame

[DRFVDR]

 madmike']

[quote name='loren said:

awesome. thanks mike. 9 is a bit scary.

/quote]

Ahh YEAH!!!

Some of them sound nice.. But the cost of an aftermarket ECU and tuning required is very scary to guys who don't have the budget to do it..

As a Rescuer this is very very scary,we have had some experince with methanol in the meth jetsprint boats

and we are being equipped with fire extinguishers more suitable to the E85 fuel(which could be another cost of u have onboard extingushing as a normal powder extingusher is not that effective on the E85)

[5UBZRO]

yea not long now before us superstocks are banned from running avgas.... I guess as demand for e85 increases the price may lower due to competing fuel companies etc.

[Guest loren]

 5UBZRO said:

yea not long now before us superstocks are banned from running avgas.... I guess as demand for e85 increases the price may lower due to competing fuel companies etc.

nice theory, but it doesn't seems to work with any other petrol, and E85 motorsport

sales will be completely insignificant compared to normal fuel.

[5UBZRO]

 loren']

[quote name='5UBZRO said:

yea not long now before us superstocks are banned from running avgas.... I guess as demand for e85 increases the price may lower due to competing fuel companies etc.

/quote]

nice theory, but it doesn't seems to work with any other petrol, and E85 motorsport

sales will be completely insignificant compared to normal fuel.

good point. Now that I think about it, avgas didnt get cheaper as it became more popular. Might just stick to 98 for now.

[Guest]

IMO and from our testing E85 is well worth the extra cost and consumption if your looking to push your engine to the limit and make it reliable.

We have done a few silvias on E85 with no major issues apart from similar to whats listed above.

You need to run an alachole friendly oil.

heres a couple of examples of Drift silvias we tuned last week.

SR20DET, stock unopend engine. upgraded cams, sinco exhuast manifold GT2876R turbo. Link ECU.

21psi 335kw with more room once the fuel system is upgraded to suit.

on pump gas you would see around 270kw out of a setup like this.

SR20DET, forged 8.5:1, cams, sinco exhuast manifold, HKS GTRS turbo, Link ECU

315kw on 20psi with more room once the fuel system is upgraded as this will allow us to run more boost of 25psi+

Another one we did a while ago which was a pretty crazy build

SR20DE (factory stock engine 10.5:1), Sinco exhuast manifold, GT2876R turbo, Link ECU

295kw 18psi.

Nobody would ever dream of pushing that much boost through a stock SR20DE, but it held together in the KE26 for a drift season and it was still going strong when removed

Not us but theres also Gaz Whiters S14

SR20det (10.5:!) cams etc, sinco exhuast manifold, DSR3540. Link ECU.

24psi 450Kw from a 2ltr

So the gains can be rather large.

I was talking to alcotain the supplier of our ethanol and hes talking about setting up pumps at a few tracks etc, just as his discussions with MSNZ progress

there is also word of setting up E30 which is more cost effective and good enough for most setups, though Theres no specific calibrations on the Dyno for reading E30 as there is already for E85

[5UBZRO]

interesting, but as madmike said, most trackies struggle to make race day let alone change whole fuel systems and tunes to suit e85. If a cars tuned on E85, is it able to be run on anything else? Say, because my cars still road legal can I still run 98 to drive it to and from exhaust/wheel alignment/my work etc to get work done? or will it be throwing way too much fuel in on e85? Just at the moment I put 96 in my car to drive it around (nicely- no boost) to get work done etc.

[Guest]

E85 and road cars..

It would be more suited for cars with aftermarket ECUs such as Link G4 etc that can have switchable fuel maps.

so while its a hastle having to drain the fuel tank to swap fuels.

I would say the gains you get from using the fuel is well worth it, though I guess you would need to see/feel the difference in real life to know exactly why I feel this way.

With E85 you can run the car very lean on light load/cruising with out missfireing etc due to the stableness of the fuel. effictivly 18:1 A/F ratio on pump gas

An E30 blend will suit most of your average Joe blogs as it will have increased knock resistance and a slight power increase. though we have only tuned a couple of cars on it so havn't had enough experiance to be able to say what exact gains you may see from E30 over pump gas.

[madmike]

 GETLOW said:

E85 and road cars..

It would be more suited for cars with aftermarket ECUs such as Link G4 etc that can have switchable fuel maps.

so while its a hastle having to drain the fuel tank to swap fuels.

I would say the gains you get from using the fuel is well worth it, though I guess you would need to see/feel the difference in real life to know exactly why I feel this way.

With E85 you can run the car very lean on light load/cruising with out missfireing etc due to the stableness of the fuel. effictivly 18:1 A/F ratio on pump gas

An E30 blend will suit most of your average Joe blogs as it will have increased knock resistance and a slight power increase. though we have only tuned a couple of cars on it so havn't had enough experiance to be able to say what exact gains you may see from E30 over pump gas.

Don't get me wrong E85 sounds like it has real advantages.

But until i can afford to go aftermarket with my ECU and install larger injectors +tuning i will stick with the standard computer and 98.

If i was to get sponsorship to allow me to try it i would be keen to give it a try and see what i can get.

But until then 98 is my only option.

Budget racing is fun huh!

[funkytown]

waiting on that mystical sponsorship too mike

id like to get mine tuned to E85 as some what a learning experience for shred and also for me if i went to have some fun in "straight line" events... like you were wondering about Mike