Questions about NZ/Subaru

[Guest]

So I'm just under 3 weeks from arriving in Auckland (so excited!), and I've narrowed my choices down to buying a Subaru Legacy ('99-'03) of some sort, but I've still got a lot to learn about NZ, buying cars, and Subarus in general. I'll keep all my questions here instead of posting new threads every time a question about NZ pops into my head.

- Do dealers in NZ allow cars to be taken to a mechanic to get it checked out? If not, how do you guys get the cars checked out? Do you pay a mechanic to come with you? (if so, how much?)

- If a dealer offers a 2-years mechanical warranty, does that mean I could take it to my shop and have it fixed and they pay the bill? I'm sure it differs from one dealer to another, but is there a "standard"?

- When dealing with car dealers in NZ do you haggle prices by a lot?

- What can I expect to pay for a 100,000km service at a local Subaru specialist? Is $1,500 about right? I'm hoping there are some professional Subaru mechanics on this forum that can answer this.

[Guest]

if you are gonna get a car checked out, i would strongly recommend an AA pre purchase check, costs about $250 but they are very thorough, and you know EXACTLY what you are buying, also, then you can buy privately, saving a good couple of grand. some dealers are VERY dodgy, and as for those 2 year warranties...some of them arent worth the paper they are written on

[Guest]

where are you coming from?

[Guest]

Coming from the US. Gonna be weird driving on the right (proper?) side. And not having white christmas :'( :'( :'(

But hello gorgeous views, nice cars, and a country that no one hates!

I think in another thread, some people mentioned that AA is good for basic car issues, but that I should get a Subaru specialist to check the car out. That's why I was asking how you guys do things down there in NZ. Over here (when buying from a private owner), a lot of times a potential buyer will ask to have the car be inspected by their mechanic. With dealers though, it's pretty much just throwing the dice. I was trying to see if you guys do things differently there.

[Guest]

haha, we dont hate the country, just some of the people i.e. BUSH!!! ive spent a bit of time in the states, so i know what driving on the other side is like, but it might get a bit stressful here, auckland drivers on the whole are absolute CRAP!!! also, we have lots and lots of corners...everywhere!!!

if you can, definitely take it to a subaru specialist, might also help you weed out the crap cars, as soon as you tell them you are taking it to a specialist, see if they start crapping themselves!

you might even be able to make it to the beach cruise on the 26th if you get one as soon as you land!!!

Have you checked out www.trademe.co.nz thats where a lot of the cars are bought and sold, also has some dealer cars too

also, dont know your budget, but theres a guy coming back from europe and he is looking to spend $20,000 on a car, and has a thread going, you might want to check it out http://www.clubsub.org.nz/forum/index.php?topic=5406.new;topicseen#new

[BlkPnthr]

 hellmitt said:

also, dont know your budget, but theres a guy coming back from europe and he is looking to spend $20,000 on a car, and has a thread going, you might want to check it out http://www.clubsub.org.nz/forum/index.php?topic=5406.new;topicseen#new

That'd be me I'm thinking if you're wanting a 99-03 Legacy then you're probably looking to spend slightly less. If you can stretch then that white BP5 i posted in that thread looks pretty nice (depending on your tastes of course). Otherwise as hellmitt said, TradeMe is a good place to look at cars and figure out what sort of prices they're going for. There's usually tonnes of Legacy's on there. Do you want auto/manual? Turbo/NA? Station wagon/sedan?

When i was driving in Europe, took a bit to adjust to driving on the other side of the road, especially going the other way around round-abouts, but i was a bit concerned to find out that when i got back to a country that drove on the left-hand side of the road it almost felt wrong!

Good luck finding a car, and hope the move goes smoothly

[Guest]

Yeah I'm definitely looking in the $12 - $15k range. I'm really not looking for anything super amazing, but the B4 RSK gives so much power and the price seems to fit well for me, so I've basically decided to get one of those. Definitely will be getting a manual car. Anyhow, I don't wanna bog you guys down for suggestions on cars just yet. I'm more concerned about the process of buying one in NZ at the moment.

Btw BlkPnthr, check this car out http://www.canterburywholesale.co.nz/stock/show.php?id=395&category=&make=Subaru&model=&srt=make%20ASC&p=50&search=Search&page=1

I wanted to buy it, but I highly doubt I can talk them to giving it away for $15k, which is my absolute max imposed by the wifey, sigh. With the money saved for buying it, you could make it look more like that white car if you'd like There's also a black one on tm that you can get for the same price (they raised it to $20k now, but it was $18k less than a week ago, and you can probably ask for it at that price still).

[Guest keltik]

1. Haggle like hell. Theres generally at least 2k of margin on dealer cars

2. Yes take it to get it inspected. If they dont seem keen on that - take it for a test drive and take it to get inspected, your well within your rights.

3. Mechanical warrantys are good on problem cars. On a turbo Subaru i would probably take it. You have to get your car serviced at a certified workshop and have a little book stamped at each service. If you dont follow the directions the warranty people dont have to pay out. So you'd have to get your car serviced when they tell you to.

[Guest]

 keltik said:

1. Haggle like hell. Theres generally at least 2k of margin on dealer cars

2. Yes take it to get it inspected. If they dont seem keen on that - take it for a test drive and take it to get inspected, your well within your rights.

3. Mechanical warrantys are good on problem cars. On a turbo Subaru i would probably take it.

1. $2k margin even for used cars in the $12-15k range? I guess I'll make initial offers at around $3k lower than sticker price.

2. How long does a normal test drive usually take? Over here, a test drive is like a 10 min ride. Surely that's not enough time to take the car to a mechanic, wait for them to be ready, have them inspect it, and then take it back to the shop?

3. Turbo Subarus are problem cars?

[BlkPnthr]

 Grifter730 said:

Btw BlkPnthr, check this car out http://www.canterburywholesale.co.nz/stock/show.php?id=395&category=&make=Subaru&model=&srt=make%20ASC&p=50&search=Search&page=1

I wanted to buy it, but I highly doubt I can talk them to giving it away for $15k, which is my absolute max imposed by the wifey, sigh. With the money saved for buying it, you could make it look more like that white car if you'd like There's also a black one on tm that you can get for the same price (they raised it to $20k now, but it was $18k less than a week ago, and you can probably ask for it at that price still).

Cheers, only had a chance to briefly peek at it, but does seem pretty tidy. Km getting up there but otherwise..

[Guest keltik]

Yeah theres usually about 2k in cars at that price range. You should easily be able to get the dealer to chop a few thousand off for a cash sale. When i bought my Legacy for 20k i managed to get 2k off it and a new set of tires and alignment.

Twin turbos are problem cars, not many people will argue with that. Well looked after - they seem to last. I bought a warranty for my non-turbo and have never needed to use it. Was a bit of a waste of money in hindsight.

Up to 6 months ago, car yards were VERY lenient with test drives. I could walk onto almost any lot and take a car for the afternoon. A test drive shouldnt be 10 minutes, it should be at least an hour in my opinion. In the last few months car yards have gotten more strict, but you should still be able to take the car for a couple hours if your serious about purchasing. Any salesman that denies you that is an idiot.

[DRFVDR]

 keltik said:

1. Haggle like hell. Theres generally at least 2k of margin on dealer cars

2. Yes take it to get it inspected. If they dont seem keen on that - take it for a test drive and take it to get inspected, your well within your rights.

3. Mechanical warrantys are good on problem cars. On a turbo Subaru i would probably take it. You have to get your car serviced at a certified workshop and have a little book stamped at each service. If you dont follow the directions the warranty people dont have to pay out. So you'd have to get your car serviced when they tell you to.

If they seem not to keen WALK away

they wont be keen for a reason go somewhere else as u will find the car u want for the price u want else where

[Guest]

I've not encountered a dealer who won't let you have a vehicle inspected. There are fixed location options (like the AA) or you can get a mobile inspector like Car Inspection Services (http://www.carinspections.co.nz/). I've found Car Inspection Services to be very good in the past. They spend about 1.5 hours on it. They take it for a drive, jack it up and have a good look underneath, try all the buttons/switches etc.

I looked at 6 B4 RSK's before buying mine. Three of them had mechanical issues of some sort, one of them in particular turned out to be pretty sick so make sure you drive a few of them to get an idea of what they should feel like.

For the warranty, it depends on which warranty. Some require you take it to an approved workshop for repairs, some are less fussy. You'll need to check the fine print. They all have minimum servicing requirements but if you're having your B4 serviced every 5000km (as you should!) I think that covers the requirements for most of them. A service by a Subaru dealer costs about $180 for an oil and filter change and $280 for a 10,000km service which includes oil/filter, other fluid checks, vehicle inspection etc. The main thing people get the warranty for on the Turbo Subarus is to cover the cost of a BEB (Big End Bearing) failure which *seems* to happen more often to Subaru's (particularly the twin turbo Legacy's) then we'd like.

Definitely haggle. I expect there are some dealers out there that are really hurting. What have you got to lose by making an offer and having it refused?

A cambelt change varies from $1200 odd to $1800 (the quote Subaru gave me two weeks ago). The 100,000km service should also include new spark plugs (approx $100 just for the plugs), air filter, fuel filter, transmission and diff oil change etc so count on it being more then that. I did the plugs, air and fuel filters myself. I don't remember off hand how much the transmission/diff oil change was.

By now you should have probably figured out that the B4 RSK's are not cheap to run. Servicing isn't cheap (especially that 100,000km service!) and you have to run them on 98 octane petrol (currently about $1.84 per litre).

Oh, and your lack of NZ insurance history could be a problem as almost any Subaru is considered high risk for theft. Budget some money to get an AVS alarm fitted before you drive it away!

However, they are fast, fun, safe and fairly comfortable Just don't expect them to be cheap

[Guest]

oh yeah, forgot about insurance, but, i shopped around a bit, i went to all the "big" insurance companies and 3 of them wouldnt give me insurance, and another couple quoted me $1200-$1500 for full insurance for the year, all this on a driver who has been out of the country (so i dont have any claims history) on a $4000 car!!!

however, ClubAuto insured me for $500 for the year!!! so i highly recommend anyone giving them a call, even just to check out if you are paying too much on your current insurance, they specialise in performance?modified cars, and seem like a good bunch to deal with.

[Guest]

Well damn, SpotMe, you're scaring the hell outta me for looking into the B4 RSK. Does an oil change really cost $180??? Over here, oil changes are done for $20-30 a pop, and that's on any car. Is $180 considered really expensive? What would it cost to change the oil on, say, a Honda Accord of the same year?

What's the deal with the BEB failure? I thought this was a WRX thing? That sounds super scary. How common is this issue?

EDIT: I just read up on the BEB. Seems like it affects all EJ20 engines, so that covers pretty much all the Legacy I was looking at, lol. How concerned should I be about this? Seems like people say that it can happen even if you do everything right. I'm sure many of you own a Subaru with EJ20 engines, what are your thoughts on it?

[Guest keltik]

Filter = $26

Oil = $40

Sump plug washer = $2.30

The rest being labor

Same goes for any car...except mine where you need $70 worth of oil because its a fat bitch

[Guest]

ahhh, thats why i do all my own maintenance!!!

basically, if you get a good car to start with, one thats been checked out and hasnt been thrashed (which i know can be hard in NZ, but when you get it checked out, they can usually tell) change the oil and filter every 5000-10,000kms and take it for a service at the big intervals, you will have no problems.

in my experience, and from reading a bit on here, the BEB will only go when its been given a bit too much of a thrashing e.g. when the boost is cranked up. Subarus are great cars, they just need a lot more care given to them, as they are high performance vehicles (turbos). things only seem to fall apart when the owner doesnt want to keep them serviced.

Also Grifter, we have a warrant of fitness (WOF) here, which means every 6 months (1 year if the car is less than 5 years old) you get it checked out and they tell you of any major defects. so your car has to be up to standard to get one of those.

[Guest]

 hellmitt said:

ahhh, thats why i do all my own maintenance!!!

basically, if you get a good car to start with, one thats been checked out and hasnt been thrashed (which i know can be hard in NZ, but when you get it checked out, they can usually tell) change the oil and filter every 5000-10,000kms and take it for a service at the big intervals, you will have no problems.

in my experience, and from reading a bit on here, the BEB will only go when its been given a bit too much of a thrashing e.g. when the boost is cranked up. Subarus are great cars, they just need a lot more care given to them, as they are high performance vehicles (turbos). things only seem to fall apart when the owner doesnt want to keep them serviced.

Doesn't doing your own maintenance negate any warranty that you get?

I did a quick read up by googling the BEB issues, and I read in a few places where people say that it has happened to plenty of people that (allegedly, I guess) take good care of their vehicle. Anyone on this board actually have had this happen to them? If this happened while driving, wouldn't it be extremely dangerous?

[Guest]

Sorry mate, didn't mean to scare you! Just want you to have all the facts.

Those prices were at a Subaru workshop. I'm sure you can get a random garage or the AA or someone to do it cheaper. Subaru charge a bit for labour lol! That is why I should be doing every second one myself although I've been too lazy recently to do it.

Doing it myself would cost about $98 + my time. ~$28 for the filter and sump plug washer and then about another ~$70 for Castrol Edge 5w30 oil. Subaru here (Winger Subaru anyway) use Castrol Magnatec 5w30 which you can't buy off the shelf hence why I'll be using Edge. It is pricier but what can you do.

I have no idea what an oil change on a Honda Accord would cost... if it was at a Honda workshop, probably much the same! They're charging you for an hour of labour at close to $100/hour + the oil and filter etc.

When I compared the servicing costs of my Sub vs my uncles '05 Audi A8, our servicing costs work out the same. The difference is, his goes in for a service every 25,000km and mine goes in every 5000km!

BEB's happen when the detonation gets out of control. I don't think there is one reason, it can be caused by a multitude of factors including:

- fiddling with the boost level

- running too low octane fuel

- dying Air Flow Meter

- poor maintenance

- how often you thrash it

- thrashing it when cold

So as long as you get one that has been looked after and you keep up the maintenance and only ever run 98 octane fuel you'll be fine! Air flow meters do die (turns out mine has been on its way out for a while) but are an easy part to change and what a difference it makes!

I don't have any hard stats on how common it is. Some Sub's go forever and some don't.

Think of it this way, something like the Legacy is rated at 205kw (280bhp). That is a lot of power out of a 2L engine on non forged internals and pump gas. They are practically rolling hand grenades so when something goes wrong, it tends to be messy!

Seriously though, they are fast and fun but you do have to look after them. Do buy one, just be aware that you have to look after it.

If you want something a little less highly strung, look at the 3L non turbo (like Keltik's). Sure it needs more oil in the sump and there are two more sparkplugs to replace but there is no cambelt to replace and with no turbos, the likelyhood of detonation is minimal.

Re servicing it yourself, my mechanical warranty wants it serviced by a workshop every 15,000km at a minimum so I intend to do an oil and filter change every 5000km, I'll do one and the workshop will do one. That way I get the best of both worlds.

[Guest keltik]

 Grifter730 said:

Doesn't doing your own maintenance negate any warranty that you get?

I did a quick read up by googling the BEB issues, and I read in a few places where people say that it has happened to plenty of people that (allegedly, I guess) take good care of their vehicle. Anyone on this board actually have had this happen to them?

Correct and correct. My warranty is now void. I figured over the course of 10 oil changes the money i save can almost buy me a new engine. Therefore the cost of keeping the warranty valid outweighed the benefits.

Yes people on this forum have experienced engines dying even after being well maintained. However the only Subaru engine thats ever failed for me was beaten senseless every day for 6 months. The rest have been good even with a mild amount of thrashing

[Guest]

 SpotMe said:

Sorry mate, didn't mean to scare you! Just want you to have all the facts.

Nah man, I really appreciate it. This post is really helpful. Having the list that you gave for things to check to make sure the car will be fine is really great.

I don't ever plan on thrashing the car, as I drive like a grandma as it is anyway. Some of you may wonder why even get so much power, and I guess it's because, well, I'm turning 30 soon, and really, all I've ever driven are weak cars. I'm responsible, I don't thrash cars, so why not have some extra power during those rare moments when I need it? I'm sure feeling that second turbo kick in during long rides will be fun as well. I just enjoy driving and interacting with the car I guess.

I'll just have to be sure that I take whatever car I'm seriously interested in to a Subaru workshop and have them look at it. But if even taking good care of them is no remedy, I guess I'll join y'alls club and throw the dice.

So SpotMe, your warranty isn't voided because you do one of the oil change yourself?

It's so strange to see you say that Audi only requires service every 25k km. Over here, oil change is something you have to do every 3k miles, regardless of your car make or model.

[Guest]

3000 miles is about 5000km so that isn't too different.

A lot depends on the quality of the oil you use. Something like Mobil 1/Castrol Edge is fully synthetic and has been built to cope with high temperatures (like in the bearings of a turbo) and high stress (like the bearings when the engine is spinning at 6000rpm at full boost!).

One of the differences though is that something like the Audi A8 has 20L of oil in the system so the oil is *used* less often (then again, the 4.2L V8 in the A8 would need more oil to lubricate all the extra moving parts in comparison to the 2L boxer 4 in our Subarus!).

A new Porsche Boxster or 911 has a 30,000km service interval and they mean it! When a Porsche rep was asked at a Porsche training day at a track how often they service their training cars, the reply was "as per the service schedule... 30,000km".

No, there is nothing in the fine print of my warranty that says my warranty is voided if I service it... the requirement is that every 15,000km it is taken to a workshop for a full service. Mine gets that every 10,000km... it is just that in between, the oil gets changed at 5000km and the oil comes out looking almost as clean as when it went in

[Guest]

Thanks for all the answers. You guys have been a lot of help. I'm gonna just recap myself here with my questions and paraphrasing some of your answers in bold:

- Do dealers in NZ allow cars to be taken to a mechanic to get it checked out? They BETTER, otherwise run away! Do it while on a test drive.

- If a dealer offers a 2-years mechanical warranty, does that mean I could take it to my shop and have it fixed and they pay the bill? Read the fine print. See if you can get it serviced by mechanics of your choosing. See if it gets voided if you do your own servicing. Also check if an oil cooler would void it.

- When dealing with car dealers in NZ do you haggle prices by a lot? Yes, there's about a $2k markup on cars at this price range. Start at $3k below price may be a good start.

- What can I expect to pay for a 100,000km service at a local Subaru specialist? $2k, give or take a few hundred.

- Note: Ask for full service records, even if car is being sold by dealer. This could give a decent indication of how well the car was taken care of. Any car without a full record (once in NZ) might've been thrashed too much. Will a good mechanic be able to know for sure if a car has been thrashed frequently enough to in the past to affect the car?

Well, at least I got that kinda/sorta worked out. Once I'm in NZ and about to actually start test-driving these cars, I'll ask for some pointers on what to look out for, but I'll save that for later, as this has been a good thread of info to digest for one night.

Now that that's taken care of, anyone care to explain to me how Subaru's twin turbo actually works (I don't know how ANY turbo works, Subaru or otherwise)? Does it only kick in at specific RPMs or something? I'm asking because, well, as I mentioned, I kinda drive like a grandma. With my old 2.2L Accord, I used to switch gears at around 3000RPM. I noticed SpotMe said something about the engine spinning at 6000rpm at full boost, and didn't really know what that meant. The idea of taking the car to 6000rpm kinda scares me. I know I know, I'm a car n00b, please enlighten I'm reading up Wiki and some other sites on it as well as I type this.

[NotAWhiteGTB]

Subaru's have an extremely common problem with destroying big end bearings, which could have been helped by better design, but there are some mods you can do to give your bearings a better chance.

I swear by an oil cooler, it keeps your oil temperature down, which means the temperature of your bearings will be kept down, which in turn they should have a longer life. Although, I'm unsure what a warranty company would say about an oil cooler as some consider it a performance mod (idiots), but i consider it a reliability mod.

[Guest]

Sure thing mate.

The purpose of a turbo is to compress air into the cylinders of the engine. With more air in the cylinder you can put in more fuel, thereby getting a bigger bang and more power. Effectively, a turbo makes the engine breath as if it is a bigger engine.

The turbo is spun by the passage of exhaust gas which being very hot contains a lot of energy and can make a turbo spin at ludricous speeds!

The twin turbo system on the 98-03 Legacy's has a primary and a secondary turbo. The primary is intended to start producing boost from about 2000rpm and starts to run out of puff somewhere around 4-5000rpm. Around 4-5000rpm the computer starts directing exhaust gas to the secondary turbo so that both turbos are producing boost. Therefore, below 4500rpm or so, it is running with one turbo and then from 4500-7500rpm it is running on both.

The redline on the Legacies of that era is 7500rpm and believe me, at wide open throttle in third gear, it takes very little time for the engine speed to go from 5000rpm to 7500rpm!

Around town, it is very unlikely you'd ever run it that hard. You can trickle around town quite happily only revving to 3000-3500rpm. I find there isn't a lot of torque below 2000rpm though.

Turbo's have a couple of side effects, the first is that because they spin very fast, they get hot. This in turn is hard on the oil that is keeping the turbo bearings afloat. This is where good quality oil and frequent changes is important.

The second side effect is that the air heats up as it is compressed. This in turn can help cause detonation which is when the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder ignites so early that it tries to force the piston back down while it is on its upward stroke. This is very very hard on the bearings.

Since the engine speed needs to increase to produce boost, there is a lag between when you put your foot down and the turbo starts producing more boost. This is known as turbo lag. That is one reason why there is a period during the switchover from one turbo to both that there is a boost drop (called the VOD or Valley Of Death). During this time, the primary turbo loses some of it's exhaust gas flow to spin up the secondary but until the secondary reaches a suitable speed it isn't producing any boost.

On earlier Legacies, this drop in boost was quite noticable, especially if you downshift into it. On later models (01-02) the boost drop is somewhat less, the time somewhat shorter but you can still downshift into it. It isn't hard to drive around though... you soon get the hang of it.

As a side note, a supercharger achieves the same effect but is driven off the engine. This means as soon as the engine speed increases, the speed of the supercharger increases so boost comes on more quickly i.e. there is less (if any) lag.