"Limiting Factor for lowering Subaru's" Certifier Said

[Yates]

So I went to the certifier and I was saying Im putting bags in note this is a Grandwagon intended as a sound car bags also for handling a bit of extra weight so there\'s no sag in no way is it meant for speed.

Anyway he straight away said There is a limiting factor for lowering Subaru\'s and I have talked to other Certifiers and they have said no such thing now Im worried that he is right but part of me thinks he just doesn\'t like Subaru\'s just in case some of you know him he is Neal Miller from Hamilton

I was looking in to ALK Anti lift kits would this help stop the angle of the outer tie rods and control arms from being to angled to stop the certifier certifying it.

If you have any information please share would be very grateful I imagine afew of you have been through this before.

[boon]

When Subarus get really low they pick up certain unhealthy bump steer characteristics. I think roll centre adjusters are what you want, not an ALK.

[Yates]

 B-MAGIC']

Best to go for a strong set of springs and struts. Would be ALOT of strain on ya airbags with a lot of weight as you can only fit a small size airbag on subis (most cars) plus the air compressor will be working harder etc imo bags for your purposes will be insufficient - I run a plug and play setup in my wrx - my airbags are connected to the strut. so built for handling etc not made to carry weight - where you located, pm me im in AKL if you want to come check out my setup cheers

Would be keen to come check it out. Which part of of Auckland are you? oh Im Te Awamutu area but it would be worth the travel would you mind a few questions aswell

I thought airbags could handle more when it comes to this kind of stuff like all the guys on SMD Forums forums dedicated to car audio they have masive american cars with setups over 600kg no probs with bags I also have seen another guy with a subaru Impreza with a heavy sound system does it depend on the bags and shocks? what bags are you using?

and I have GReady coilovers installed at the moment they are damper adjustable and very tight so I was going to do bag over struts with the coilovers thought this would be my best option most of the reason I want bags is because I am so limited for where I can go and can\'t even get up my dam driveway at the moment without the exhaust scraping and I have always loved bags

[quote name='boon said:

When Subarus get really low they pick up certain unhealthy bump steer characteristics. I think roll centre adjusters are what you want, not an ALK.

Where can I get roll centre adjusters from and what kind of cost am I looking at could I install both?

[Yates]

also camber I don\'t want to go excessive like 1-2 degrees but the cert guy said 0.5 degrees is the most this is the rear but does anyone know the limits?

[boon]

I had 6 DD2515\'s in a 1.5" thick MDF box, a Stetsom 10kd and 12 17Ah batteries in the back of a GF8 with Cusco coilovers and it handled it completely fine.

If you\'re going any bigger than that then a Subaru is the wrong car, frameless windows mean they suck large balls for SPL because as soon as you go over about 150dB on music the windows start to flap off the seals and you lose all your pressure.

Edit: Word of advice about SMD Forums, while a fair few guys there know what they\'re doing, there\'s a massive shitload of incorrect stuff that gets trotted out on a daily basis (or at least there was when I hung around there a few years ago). More or less like any other audio forum. The vast majority of people on there still think soldering > crimping.

[ADIKT]

So much I want to say. But cbf writing it. Might do it later

EDIT:

Ok so a bit bored at work

Ive had multiple cars on bags before and gone through multiple set ups.

I will use my 07 legacy as reference.

 

2 chrome tanks

Dive bottle setup

2 Viair 480c compressors + water traps

Half inch lines, valves and fittings

Bags in the front and cylinders in the back.

Black 9 switch hand held switchbox

2 220psi Viair gauges mounted in dash above factory stereo.

Up front it had custom bag overs - 1/2" ports/lines/valves (popped up REAL fast - so fast it fucked my shocks - went through 3 sets of shocks before I changed the set up to slow it down a bit)

In the rear I had cylinders - all half inch aswell

The set up was using a 200psi pressure switch (turned on at 160/170psi and turned the compressors off at 200) With the dive bottle it would reach pressures of 210psi MAX.

This was enough pressure to pop the car off the ground (front and back) LOTS OF FUN MUAHAHAHA

The only down side was having passengers in the back - the rear would sag after a while and wouldn\'t pop up that fast (cylinder seals ended up leaking with weight in the back - would have to top up the pressure every now and then - no weight/passengers it was fine)

-

If you do decide to go for air suspension - I would suggest staying away from the cylinders! (had them on all four corners in another one of my cars and had problems with the seals aswell - although that car was even more crazy - 4 compressors, dive bottle and a max pressure of 230psi!!) That car hopped ;D )

-

I cruised the legacy high and low (could drive it fully slammed - just no full lock, was close to full lock though)

The drivability was good! was such a smooth car to drive. I had the tiniest bit of bump steer - its fun though

-

I recently investigated other options (wanted to bag a new outback)

No one could supply a 1/2" bolt in kit - would have to be custom made (plenty of kits out there - but nothing to my specs)

One route I was seriously considering was the D2 set ups - custom setup with the d2 shocks and bags (only 3/8")

-

Some pics of my old legacy

And a short video

[soopersubaru]

Certifiers name is Noel Miller. ..Min height of vehicle i believe is 150mm?. Airbags..interesting concept and feasible too. Why not? Good shock to control it, should be as good as springs with levelling abilities. Just like a Bus!...lol. even urabus..A?

[mattapo]

Neil Miller or Noel McMillin?

I used Neil for my kit car, he was a bit funny about a couple of things he didn\'t like about the design of the frame and wasn\'t the happiest about sending the paperwork away, made notes about a couple of things he thought differently about but at the end of the day it had full design approval so in my case it didn\'t matter what he thought.

the point is with certs a lot of it is the point of view of the individual, he might not be happy about doing bags or he may not have done many, try finding someone that has experience with them and use that person, they will know more about what you can and can\'t do.

[Scoobydoo]

 Trends Car Audio & Alarms - Mattapo said:

Neil Miller or Noel McMillin?

I used Neil for my kit car, he was a bit funny about a couple of things he didn\'t like about the design of the frame and wasn\'t the happiest about sending the paperwork away, made notes about a couple of things he thought differently about but at the end of the day it had full design approval so in my case it didn\'t matter what he thought.

the point is with certs a lot of it is the point of view of the individual, he might not be happy about doing bags or he may not have done many, try finding someone that has experience with them and use that person, they will know more about what you can and can\'t do.

Yep.. this.

You don\'t have to go to a local person for a cert.. there are probably more experienced people with bag setups in Auckland. If you have an NZPC magazine, isn\'t there like a trade directory or something like that, in there?

[QRAF]

http://www.accuairsuspension.com/index.html

I\'ve been looking at this setup for my wagon

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/accuair

[ADIKT]

Edited my original post with some info for the OP

Not exactly that helpful but thought i would share some of my thoughts

[Yates]

 boon said:

I had 6 DD2515\'s in a 1.5" thick MDF box, a Stetsom 10kd and 12 17Ah batteries in the back of a GF8 with Cusco coilovers and it handled it completely fine.

If you\'re going any bigger than that then a Subaru is the wrong car, frameless windows mean they suck large balls for SPL because as soon as you go over about 150dB on music the windows start to flap off the seals and you lose all your pressure.

Edit: Word of advice about SMD Forums, while a fair few guys there know what they\'re doing, there\'s a massive shitload of incorrect stuff that gets trotted out on a daily basis (or at least there was when I hung around there a few years ago). More or less like any other audio forum. The vast majority of people on there still think soldering > crimping.

Wrote a hole lot the it deleted on me dam it anyway. I plan for a set up that would weigh similar to that I am planning for a 10-12 12\'s in a 4th order wall with a removable port gonna be lower power 12\'s going for the loud and clean not to worried about scores only gonna run 6k-8k. Do you have any pics of your last setup. I had this weird idea a built a T-Line for 2 18\'s worked really well had the on about 1200wrms and the where awesome but changed my mind and wanted to go bigger.

[Yates]

 ADIKT said:

So much I want to say. But cbf writing it. Might do it later

EDIT:

Ok so a bit bored at work

Ive had multiple cars on bags before and gone through multiple set ups.

I will use my 07 legacy as reference.

 

2 chrome tanks

Dive bottle setup

2 Viair 480c compressors + water traps

Half inch lines, valves and fittings

Bags in the front and cylinders in the back.

Black 9 switch hand held switchbox

2 220psi Viair gauges mounted in dash above factory stereo.

Up front it had custom bag overs - 1/2" ports/lines/valves (popped up REAL fast - so fast it fucked my shocks - went through 3 sets of shocks before I changed the set up to slow it down a bit)

In the rear I had cylinders - all half inch aswell

The set up was using a 200psi pressure switch (turned on at 160/170psi and turned the compressors off at 200) With the dive bottle it would reach pressures of 210psi MAX.

This was enough pressure to pop the car off the ground (front and back) LOTS OF FUN MUAHAHAHA

The only down side was having passengers in the back - the rear would sag after a while and wouldn\'t pop up that fast (cylinder seals ended up leaking with weight in the back - would have to top up the pressure every now and then - no weight/passengers it was fine)

-

If you do decide to go for air suspension - I would suggest staying away from the cylinders! (had them on all four corners in another one of my cars and had problems with the seals aswell - although that car was even more crazy - 4 compressors, dive bottle and a max pressure of 230psi!!) That car hopped ;D )

-

I cruised the legacy high and low (could drive it fully slammed - just no full lock, was close to full lock though)

The drivability was good! was such a smooth car to drive. I had the tiniest bit of bump steer - its fun though

-

I recently investigated other options (wanted to bag a new outback)

No one could supply a 1/2" bolt in kit - would have to be custom made (plenty of kits out there - but nothing to my specs)

One route I was seriously considering was the D2 set ups - custom setup with the d2 shocks and bags (only 3/8")

-

Some pics of my old legacy

And a short video

awesome great to see more bagged subaru\'s especially Legacy\'s haven\'t seen any 2nd gens but its still really great to see it I love!

[Yates]

 soopersubaru said:

Certifiers name is Noel Miller. ..Min height of vehicle i believe is 150mm?. Airbags..interesting concept and feasible too. Why not? Good shock to control it, should be as good as springs with levelling abilities. Just like a Bus!...lol. even urabus..A?

150mm do you thing if I got rid of the excessive angle on the control arms and outer tie rods with a Anti Lift Kit I would be able to cert it lower?

[Yates]

 Trends Car Audio & Alarms - Mattapo said:

Neil Miller or Noel McMillin?

I used Neil for my kit car, he was a bit funny about a couple of things he didn\'t like about the design of the frame and wasn\'t the happiest about sending the paperwork away, made notes about a couple of things he thought differently about but at the end of the day it had full design approval so in my case it didn\'t matter what he thought.

the point is with certs a lot of it is the point of view of the individual, he might not be happy about doing bags or he may not have done many, try finding someone that has experience with them and use that person, they will know more about what you can and can\'t do.

It Neal Miller and Thank you for sharing this I thought he had it in for Subaru\'s just the way he sounded when I went there and he screwed up his face when I mentioned the word bags I will go to Auckland but I haven\'t talked to any there one day I\'ll have to make a trip and talk to them

[Yates]

 QRAF said:

http://www.accuairsuspension.com/index.html

I\'ve been looking at this setup for my wagon

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/accuair

Yeah seen Accuir before its so expensive and I\'m all good with a basic set-up

[QRAF]

2k for a kit off e-bay by the looks

[Tony]

 Yates said:

150mm do you thing if I got rid of the excessive angle on the control arms and outer tie rods with a Anti Lift Kit I would be able to cert it lower?

Anti lift kit wont get rid of the excessive angle on the control arms and tie rods - you need roll centre and bump steer adjusters (ideally more than what the Whiteline roll centre kit offers if the car is super low). Marc has some bits for sale for a real good price which may suit you: http://www.clubsub.org.nz/forum/index.php/topic,41547.0.html

[Yates]

 QRAF said:

2k for a kit off e-bay by the looks

I was planning on running Bag\'s over the coilovers I had mostly because they are damper adjustable so for long trips I can run them on soft and so on.

[Yates]

 Tony']

[quote name='Yates said:

150mm do you thing if I got rid of the excessive angle on the control arms and outer tie rods with a Anti Lift Kit I would be able to cert it lower?

/quote]

Anti lift kit wont get rid of the excessive angle on the control arms and tie rods - you need roll centre and bump steer adjusters (ideally more than what the Whiteline roll centre kit offers if the car is super low). Marc has some bits for sale for a real good price which may suit you: http://www.clubsub.org.nz/forum/index.php/topic,41547.0.html

Is there any way of getting rid of the excessive angle? I just thought that was why you can\'t go that low on a Subaru. Thanks for the link I\'ll look into it

[funkytown]

 Tony said:

Anti lift kit wont get rid of the excessive angle on the control arms and tie rods - you need roll centre and bump steer adjusters (ideally more than what the Whiteline roll centre kit offers if the car is super low). Marc has some bits for sale for a real good price which may suit you: http://www.clubsub.org.nz/forum/index.php/topic,41547.0.html

what about this is hard to understand....

sounds like you need to do some homework studying how suspension geometry works and what bits affect what parts of the geometry.

granted you wont be able to alter the CV angles but thats a different discussion all together

[QRAF]

SO whose good to cert cars in hamilton?

[Yates]

 funkytown']

[quote name='Tony said:

Anti lift kit wont get rid of the excessive angle on the control arms and tie rods - b]you need roll centre and bump steer adjusters[/b] (ideally more than what the Whiteline roll centre kit offers if the car is super low). Marc has some bits for sale for a real good price which may suit you: http://www.clubsub.org.nz/forum/index.php/topic,41547.0.html

what about this is hard to understand....

sounds like you need to do some homework studying how suspension geometry works and what bits affect what parts of the geometry.

granted you wont be able to alter the CV angles but thats a different discussion all together

Sorry its just what he said Neal Miller he was saying There is a limiting factor on Suabru\'s about their outer Tie Rods being to excessive is that him trying to say I need bump steer adjusters. Sorry Im still learning I have been doing research but I obviously need to do some more Im just trying to do the best I can and do it myself and learn in the process.

[mattapo]

 QRAF said:

SO whose good to cert cars in hamilton?

Neil Miller is good, He can be a bit funny about some things but is good.