wastegate position.

[WRXONP]

IM not saying im right . . I just cant see waste gate position giving 20 kw . . And if its so bad to have the gate on the collector then why do sinco manifolds have it on their collector ? ? Since your so brainy and all

[Ninja8)]

Subscribed

[Guest]

 Ninja 8) said:

Subscribed

+1

Might post a link on "What tickles your funny bits"

[nt_a_foz]

You asked for the options i told you what i had seen....

end

[Guest]

I agree with bull shit on the 20kws unless the placement was worse and caused and increase of boost because it was a more inefficient place and open loop boost control was used which couldnt compensate.

[sultan]

this is quite simple really. to gain more power, you need to have at least one of the following. increased air density, increased air flow, decrease in air temperature, advance in ignition timing or leaner fuel mixture. the only one of those that the wastegate has any influence over when compared to another wastegate and/or position, is air density aka boost. so it's not really possible to gain more power without increasing the boost in this scenario. the only reason boost would be increased is if it's exceeding what the boost is meant to be at, aka poor wastegate function.

to answer the actual question, what position is better, i think the real answer is who cares. i imagine all you want is to go baahhhhhhhhhhhp in which case mounted any where will do it. if you want to make your car go faster, keep your internal gate, and do something more worth while with your $$$ and time. if you have boost control issues, it is NOT because of your current wastegate.

[Guest]

 WRXONP said:

IM not saying im right . . I just cant see waste gate position giving 20 kw . . And if its so bad to have the gate on the collector then why do sinco manifolds have it on their collector ? ? Since your so brainy and all

You can't compare a sinco manifold to a subaru manifold.

Sincos are placed on the collector as this is the best place to be able to remove the gas flow needed to hold a steady boost level from his multipul designs and dyno testing that he has done over the years. With his smooth flowing merge collectors gas has a high speed and is directed right in to the exhuast housing, unlike meny other cheep manifolds. If the wastegate was taken from the center of the manifold then it wouldn't have the gas flow to be able to control boost correctly.

Your exhuast manifold is pressureised, So while I don't think wastegate posistion is going to do much if any difference in power. I can understand a slight change with spool time and boost control as this is highly effected by wastegate position and how its piped in to the manifold

[WRXER]

Im suprised no one asked how this was fixed 5 - 10years ago before the answer to everything boost wise was "get an external wastie" became the only answer.

In my case boost control was the key issue, I placed mine by the turbo off the up-pipe ultimately to fix my boost issues (had it in a couple positions previously which brought issues with boost control), and for those that argue off the up-pipe is a poor place as it can break off etc then that is something new. Never seen that happen in multiple setups including mine that has had lots of track use...If it doesn't come off after launching over a ripple strip at 140kph onto the paddock then road driving will not affect it.

To summarise up, basically what sultan said. I had boost issues 10 years on my first wrx which then externals were freaking expensive and was proven not to need one, I fitted a simple boost tap which never caused an issue til I changed my wrx 4 years later. And gave a good dyno curve when I did dyno runs too, im still amazed how much externals are regarded as a need.

[Guest]

 sultan said:

this is quite simple really. to gain more power, you need to have at least one of the following. increased air density, increased air flow, decrease in air temperature, advance in ignition timing or leaner fuel mixture. the only one of those that the wastegate has any influence over when compared to another wastegate and/or position, is air density aka boost. so it's not really possible to gain more power without increasing the boost in this scenario. the only reason boost would be increased is if it's exceeding what the boost is meant to be at, aka poor wastegate function.

to answer the actual question, what position is better, i think the real answer is who cares. i imagine all you want is to go baahhhhhhhhhhhp in which case mounted any where will do it. if you want to make your car go faster, keep your internal gate, and do something more worth while with your $$$ and time. if you have boost control issues, it is NOT because of your current wastegate.

cheers for that bro.myinternal is faulty and cant handle much more than 15psi with the tap on.and with the factory soleniod hookd up it spikes quite abit..so yeh a external is what i need,etha way i need to get rid of the internal.

[Guest]

 WRXER said:

Im suprised no one asked how this was fixed 5 - 10years ago before the answer to everything boost wise was "get an external wastie" became the only answer.

In my case boost control was the key issue, I placed mine by the turbo off the up-pipe ultimately to fix my boost issues (had it in a couple positions previously which brought issues with boost control), and for those that argue off the up-pipe is a poor place as it can break off etc then that is something new. Never seen that happen in multiple setups including mine that has had lots of track use...If it doesn't come off after launching over a ripple strip at 140kph onto the paddock then road driving will not affect it.

To summarise up, basically what sultan said. I had boost issues 10 years on my first wrx which then externals were freaking expensive and was proven not to need one, I fitted a simple boost tap which never caused an issue til I changed my wrx 4 years later. And gave a good dyno curve when I did dyno runs too, im still amazed how much externals are regarded as a need.

cheers for your 2cents man.will take it under consideration.cheers ;D

[raymong]

the turbo is designed to have the factory internal wastegate with the right sized diameter..

fitting a 38 mm external wastegate its actually letting too much out..

really if you were able to see the valve working in action..it would be constantly flutter(opening/closing) to maintain wastegate pressure...wat you would find with the internal it will open and stay open and be steady through-out the rev range..

wouldnt you think by having the external fluttering it would distrub the flow to the turbo??

[WRXONP]

An external should never flutter . On a ebc they have 2 settings . Poppet and swing . . One for internal one for external . The "flutter" is for internal and the external setting does not flutter . It holds open full time . . If it was letting out too much it would under boost aye . . . . . ..

[CUDDAS]

Sounds good to me.

But I would & Have it closer to the turbo than down at the collector for flow & because that's what i wanted,

sure cutting a hole & welding a flange down on the manifold will divert exhaust gasses out when the external opens, but its the interuption of exhaust flow up the up pipe as it's not exactly flow friendly mounted down there is it.

but if your not worried about the flow & would prefer the noise, well there's your answer, down on the manifold is cheap & well look around everyones doing it, so unless you want to pay a little more, & it's really up to you

& if it lets too much out it's not controlling boost is it.

[WRXONP]

The other guy said that if it stays open it wil let too much out . . But it doesnt . Thats how externals are suppose to work . External waste gate should never flutter unless you have it on stock solinoid or hooked your ebc up wrong

[CUDDAS]

yep he did too thought you'd posted that, hence why i put it at the bottom, will remove for ya

[sultan]

 sti8u']

[quote name='sultan said:

this is quite simple really. to gain more power, you need to have at least one of the following. increased air density, increased air flow, decrease in air temperature, advance in ignition timing or leaner fuel mixture. the only one of those that the wastegate has any influence over when compared to another wastegate and/or position, is air density aka boost. so it's not really possible to gain more power without increasing the boost in this scenario. the only reason boost would be increased is if it's exceeding what the boost is meant to be at, aka poor wastegate function.

to answer the actual question, what position is better, i think the real answer is who cares. i imagine all you want is to go baahhhhhhhhhhhp in which case mounted any where will do it. if you want to make your car go faster, keep your internal gate, and do something more worth while with your $$$ and time. if you have boost control issues, it is NOT because of your current wastegate.

/quote]

cheers for that bro.myinternal is faulty and cant handle much more than 15psi with the tap on.and with the factory soleniod hookd up it spikes quite abit..so yeh a external is what i need,etha way i need to get rid of the internal.

so one boost control method overboosts and the other underboosts? buy a better boost controller. an external wastegate will not make a lick of difference to you

[raymong]

its all about the boost control..

electronic boost control is the only way lol

[Koom]

Freeboost. Negate the need for any sort of boost control! Could then limit power (so you don't run out of injectors) by way of an intake restrictor just like a rally car uses i.e. 36mm for ~220 kw atw

[WRXONP]

The rally cars ive seen with restrictors still run a waste gate ? They would make allot more power without the restrictor . But they build the set up to suit the restrictor

[raymong]

the external works on a pressure spring...

let say when the gate opens at 10psi.. being a 38mm external the vf22 internal would be like 28-30mm..

it lets out too much,thus under boost...the wastegate doesnt see the 10psi anymore ..thus closing the gate till it reaches 10psi again...thus the opening and closing of the gate to regulate 10 psi...seems logical really..

also...makes a difference on the amount of boost you run really..low boost means more exhaust gas is vented and high boost less is vented..

[Koom]

 WRXONP said:

The rally cars ive seen with restrictors still run a waste gate ? They would make allot more power without the restrictor . But they build the set up to suit the restrictor

I was being facetious. But then its not a bad plan. How much duty cycle were they running to the wastegate on those rally cars

Wastegates are for pussy's anyway. They just lower the amount of boost that you could be shoving into your motor!

Same way as brakes just slow you down.......

[Guest]

 sultan']

[quote name='sultan said:

this is quite simple really. to gain more power, you need to have at least one of the following. increased air density, increased air flow, decrease in air temperature, advance in ignition timing or leaner fuel mixture. the only one of those that the wastegate has any influence over when compared to another wastegate and/or position, is air density aka boost. so it's not really possible to gain more power without increasing the boost in this scenario. the only reason boost would be increased is if it's exceeding what the boost is meant to be at, aka poor wastegate function.

to answer the actual question, what position is better, i think the real answer is who cares. i imagine all you want is to go baahhhhhhhhhhhp in which case mounted any where will do it. if you want to make your car go faster, keep your internal gate, and do something more worth while with your $$$ and time. if you have boost control issues, it is NOT because of your current wastegate.

/quote]

cheers for that bro.myinternal is faulty and cant handle much more than 15psi with the tap on.and with the factory soleniod hookd up it spikes quite abit..so yeh a external is what i need,etha way i need to get rid of the internal.

so one boost control method overboosts and the other underboosts? buy a better boost controller. an external wastegate will not make a lick of difference to you

lol it was a atomic boost tee.highyly recomend for subaru cause it uses the same bleed valve system.mine was fully unscrewd and could only manage 15psi.

[Guest]

 Koom']

[quote name='WRXONP said:

The rally cars ive seen with restrictors still run a waste gate ? They would make allot more power without the restrictor . But they build the set up to suit the restrictor

/quote]

I was being facetious. But then its not a bad plan. How much duty cycle were they running to the wastegate on those rally cars

Wastegates are for pussy's anyway. They just lower the amount of boost that you could be shoving into your motor!

Same way as brakes just slow you down.......

im sure you make more power with a external.my mate did a dyno without external he got 201kw he got a external welded on the manifold and less boost.he dynod it again and got 215kw.he had the proof of it.seems to be a small upgrade.

[raymong]

could be problems with factory wastegate actuator... what turbo u running??

[wrx_lou]

 Koom said:

Freeboost. Negate the need for any sort of boost control! Could then limit power (so you don't run out of injectors) by way of an intake restrictor just like a rally car uses i.e. 36mm for ~220 kw atw

again people need to read before comment. This statement never said that rally cars dont have a wastgate but that they have a intake restrictor.