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Whiteline Swaybars.....Who's tried them?


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Looking to upgrade the original swaybars on my BG Legacy and apparently Whiteline are the way to go, for my car they offer an extra 2mm on the 20mm already in the front and 1mm extra from the 19mm already in the rear, apparently this will give me +50% F and +25% R better performance, anyone had this kind of kit fitted with good/average results?

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on subbies the general rule is to uprate the rear first - this reduces the understeer they exibit from factory. you would want to uprate the rear +50% or so (going to 22mm) befor even touching the front.

Ive done it on a wrx sti yes.. not the legacy but the results are nearly the same. You will probably find that just doing the rear will give best results. This usually gives nice balance back to the car, and not understeery.

putting a front one on (as well as the rear) will still feel better than having neither on but will still be rather understeery. and a lot firmer ride. I would not encourage just doing the front one alone - it would be down right dangerous.

I would suggest putting in a 22mm adjustable in the rear and see how it feels on medium setting. Adjustable means if can adjust from 20-22-24mm. If you think its still pretty neutral then crank it up to 24mm and see how that feels - it should be rather oversteery. ** all when pushed of course.

I have done both in mine, and its set at 24 in the rear and 20 in the front and its still understeery like that. Its certainly better than stock though. To start with I had done just the rear (@22mm) and it was lots more balanced and slightly oversteery and then i whipped that up to 24mm and did the 20mm front. I really need it even firmer in the rear to get it back to oversteery.

You will find no matter what you do - upgrading either or both with make a firmer ride everywhere - least thats what i found anyway.

***the above is on my sti, but the results will be similar on the BG legacy. And yes i used white line.

Edit: Oh .. also when upgrading your sway bars make your you do your end links as well (the bits that attach the sway bar to the car) as they stock ones wont cope with the larger bars at all, and they snap pretty quickly = dangerous.

And the bushes that locate the bar to the subframe(s). Most bars come with new bushes though - pays to ask to make sure. BNT stock bushes if you cant find a set.

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 funkytown said:

on subbies the general rule is to uprate the rear first - this reduces the understeer they exibit from factory. you would want to uprate the rear +50% or so (going to 22mm) befor even touching the front.

Ive done it on a wrx sti yes.. not the legacy but the results are nearly the same. You will probably find that just doing the rear will give best results. This usually gives nice balance back to the car, and not understeery.

putting a front one on (as well as the rear) will still feel better than having neither on but will still be rather understeery. and a lot firmer ride. I would not encourage just doing the front one alone - it would be down right dangerous.

I would suggest putting in a 22mm adjustable in the rear and see how it feels on medium setting. Adjustable means if can adjust from 20-22-24mm. If you think its still pretty neutral then crank it up to 24mm and see how that feels - it should be rather oversteery. ** all when pushed of course.

I have done both in mine, and its set at 24 in the rear and 20 in the front and its still understeery like that. Its certainly better than stock though. To start with I had done just the rear (@22mm) and it was lots more balanced and slightly oversteery and then i whipped that up to 24mm and did the 20mm front. I really need it even firmer in the rear to get it back to oversteery.

You will find no matter what you do - upgrading either or both with make a firmer ride everywhere - least thats what i found anyway.

***the above is on my sti, but the results will be similar on the BG legacy. And yes i used white line.

Edit: Oh .. also when upgrading your sway bars make your you do your end links as well (the bits that attach the sway bar to the car) as they stock ones wont cope with the larger bars at all, and they snap pretty quickly = dangerous.

And the bushes that locate the bar to the subframe(s). Most bars come with new bushes though - pays to ask to make sure. BNT stock bushes if you cant find a set.

Hey thanks for that, the only problem is they only do a 20mm for the rear and no larger and no adjustibility at all, :( so I probly could'nt get the understeer thing going on but it seems quite "bulky" when you get erratic lol hence the thought for an upgrade, would you say it made the car a bit of a prick to ride in (uncomfortable)?

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not not a prick, just lots firmer - personally i like it.

In your case then i would just do 20mm rear and leave the front stock and it shoudl balance things a bit more. I think you mean oversteery, not understeery as most prefer to get it back to balanced or slightly oversteery, from the stock set up (understeery).

understeery meaing it will plough straight on and not turn when pushed to the limit - to clarify.

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 funkytown said:

not not a prick, just lots firmer - personally i like it.

In your case then i would just do 20mm rear and leave the front stock and it shoudl balance things a bit more. I think you mean oversteery, not understeery as most prefer to get it back to balanced or slightly oversteery, from the stock set up (understeery).

understeery meaing it will plough straight on and not turn when pushed to the limit - to clarify.

Yeah sorry i ment oversteer lol, honestly in the two years I have owned the car I've never actually managed to get the car sliding as such - perhaps I need to grow a pair lol, the main reason is I do allot of twisty hill driving mainly for fun and just want to eliminate the wee bit of sway feeling it has under hard turning, you think just doing the rear would do that for me? It's purely for a "feeling" kind of thing rather that me having probs with the car actually getting slipery, thanks heaps for your info mate!

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 Hailz said:
for my car they offer an extra 2mm on the 20mm already in the front and 1mm extra from the 19mm already in the rear

I just did a quick search on Whiteline's site and they actually do offer a 22mm Adj. Swaybar for both the front and rear of BG Legacy's. Have a look for yourself: http://www.whiteline.com.au

The general rule with sways is stiffer in the front more understeer/stiffer in the rear more oversteer as funkytown said. But my opinion from experience is with Subaru's a stiffer bar up front causes more front end grip and creates a more neutral car through reducing understeer. My own car is currently set at 26mm F and 24mm R.

Since I don't know what other suspension mods you have its hard to say what bars to get however those 22mm Adj.'s would definitely be my suggestion as they are practically 3 bars in one and you can find out for yourself what works for the car.

As for Whiteline's products I have found them to be very good so far...some of the quality/tolerances on certain parts is a bit questionable (HD Mounting Kits especially) but they have been reliable so far so no complaints.

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Guest boostin

I've had Whiteline front and rear sway bars for years. One of the best handling mods IMO.

Mine came with new D bushes, but I swapped the front links for alloy items. I intend getting alloy rears too, just haven't gotten around to it.

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 stance']

[quote name='Hailz said:

for my car they offer an extra 2mm on the 20mm already in the front and 1mm extra from the 19mm already in the rear/quote]

I just did a quick search on Whiteline's site and they actually do offer a 22mm Adj. Swaybar for both the front and rear of BG Legacy's. Have a look for yourself: http://www.whiteline.com.au

The general rule with sways is stiffer in the front more understeer/stiffer in the rear more oversteer as funkytown said. But my opinion from experience is with Subaru's a stiffer bar up front causes more front end grip and creates a more neutral car through reducing understeer. My own car is currently set at 26mm F and 24mm R.

Ok I've had a wee look myself and yeah your right they do a 22mm adj rear but no adj front and one thing that makes it tricky is that most of their H/D fronts are for non turbo - mines the TT model, aparantly no compatability, here's my thought now, Subaru's are prone to understeer so how about I put a 22mm in both front and rear - oviously the adj one for the rear and then I can fine tune things a little to balance things up as personally I dont think 1mm of an upgrade (which the guy had reccomended) is enough to do the job really, the wagon currently runs the nice and hard Bilstiens with HKS lowered/hardend springs with Nolathane bushes up front and strut bar :)

Thanks!

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I would still just say do the 22mm adj rear (great idea). Install it and see how much different the car feels and behaves. Then put a front one on and feel how the car shifts back to understeery.

Then you can yourself make an accurate decision about what you like the best.

If you do both at the same time you just cant gauge what the bars did front and rear.

I can see stances point of view and its what he likes - however the rules of thumb is that almost everyone ends up with thicker bars in the rear(22mm(24) adj and 19 in the front)( (unlike stanadard - higher in the front 19mm rear 18) to balance theirs cars back up.

Good luck with your purchaces - let us know how it gets on. Dont forgot the H/D mounts / End links ;)

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 Hailz said:

Ok I've had a wee look myself and yeah your right they do a 22mm adj rear but no adj front and one thing that makes it tricky is that most of their H/D fronts are for non turbo - mines the TT model, aparantly no compatability, here's my thought now, Subaru's are prone to understeer so how about I put a 22mm in both front and rear - oviously the adj one for the rear and then I can fine tune things a little to balance things up as personally I dont think 1mm of an upgrade (which the guy had reccomended) is enough to do the job really, the wagon currently runs the nice and hard Bilstiens with HKS lowered/hardend springs with Nolathane bushes up front and strut bar :)

Thanks!

Sorry my mistake, your right. It also says that all the front swaybars available (20, 22, 22 Adj.) don't fit the turbo model. Hmm.. I would send a email through to Whiteline to confirm what they do and don't have since I'm pretty sure they wouldn't just make something to fit the N/A Legacy's?

But I strongly recommend getting a bigger bar for the front and not just settling for a rear bar. The positives far outweigh the negatives.

Here's some reading that explain's what I am trying to say and I think you will benefit from:

Taken from Turn In Concept's:

As for what size bars to get, and this is my opinion based on experience, and is in consideration of solid bars (that's what I have the most experience with, and it makes for an easier comparison to stock).

For the rear bar - 22mm is good. You can pull off 24mm but the inside tire gets too light, and you lose traction in hard turns if you are on the stock springs. If you are considering going to 24mm or larger then you really really need to consider upgrading your springs first. See, the springs will stiffen not only the ride, but will also increase roll resistance. Now, stiffer springs does not have to mean a crappy ride. If you do your homework, and get a spring that a) doesn't have a stupidly low drop and b) are good for the operating range of your struts then the ride will feel just fine.

For the front - traditional thinking has held that if you want to fix understeer you want the rear to step out more. While this does work to some extent, I feel this is the wrong way to approach it. Sure CONTROLLABLE oversteer with the back stepping out is fun, and a good thing, but the front is still going wide. As part of this traditional thinking folks scream get a bigger rear bar, and leave the front alone or go smaller. I have to disagree on this. Here's why -

First, let's look at the technical reason. The dynamic camber curve for the mcpherson strut setup sucks. It just does. That's a tradeoff of running this type of setup, and all setups have their good and bad points. What happens is this - you enter a turn at speed. Your ourside front corner gets loaded with weight. That weight compresses the suspension. When the suspension compresses the camber of that wheel, where that tire is loaded, rolls toward positive camber. If you're running very little static negative camber this will actually start to make the inside edge of the tire light, reducing the width of your effective contact patch that resists lateral acceleration. This lose of traction results in that "push" or understeer condition. This is why folks who are more into performance run a decent amount of negative front camber. Sure, they give up some straight line accel and decel grip doing this, but that's more than offset by the fact that they can maximize the width of the contact patch in turns to help resist higher slip angles due to lateral acceleration. If you lower the car any with springs or coilovers that camber curve gets worse. Oh, and the added bumpsteer sucks too. Fortunately the fine fellows at 6Gun have figured out a way to help that, but that's for a different long post I'll most like use to answer somebodies questions in the next few days.

So, what they heck the the point in my saying all that? Well, let's get back to the front swaybar. The front swaybar will increase the effective spring rate of the wheel without effecting the ride spring rate. In other words, it will help keep the suspension from compressing so much at the loaded corner. Less compression means less loss of camber. Less loss of camber means that you can tune to, and maximize the contact patch of the tire to resist that push. Now, one of the things you need to consider - just like you can't make something from nothing, you can't make a good contact patch if you have nothing to give it to begin. Because the suspension will still compress some you need some negative camber in the front to start with. See the bajillion threads on alignment specs for where to start.

Now, for the second item I'd like to bring up something I've thought long and hard about for a long time. For ease I'll call it the philosphical side of the front suspension. Here's what we've got - a car that understeers or pushes quite a bit. Sure, you could throw a big bar in the rear and get the rear end to step out to help eliminate that understeer, but I feel that this is the wrong approach. The front of the car is still pushing, but the rear just happens to be stepping out at a faster rate than the front. The net result is a wider than what I feel is necessary lateral travel of the car. In other words, the rear is whipping around to point the front of the car where you want it to go, but the front of the car is still sliding sideways and taking the whole thing sideways making for a wider path than really is needed.

See, this stems from my philosophy that move oversteer does not necessarily mean less understeer. The front is still pushing. I feel the fix for this is to setup the front end of the car to truly reduce understeer as much as possible. This will make the front tuck in more, and while your tires will be resisting more lateral acceleration taking more grip from straight line acceleration (think traction circle), you'll be able to unwind from the turn faster thus getting you back toward the acceleration portion sooner than your competition. In other words, you'll be able to drive a tighter, and more controlled line.

Additionally, by reducing understeer as much as possible you won't have to set up the car for so much oversteer. This will also lead to more control, a tighter line, and the ability to accelerate sooner.

Now, that's great an all, but if you're looking for a simple answer as to what size bar to get then here it is (I'm giving these in terms of whiteline bars as I am most familiar with them):

Rear - 22mm to 24mm, but if you go to 24mm then you really want to think hard about upgrading your springs. If you go higher than 24mm then you are taking the wrong approach and trying to fix shortcomings of your springs with swaybars, and this is not the right way to do it. Get a proper spring for what you do, and then fine tune with a swaybar.

Front - for the street and mild autocross, and mild track work look at 24mm up front. If you start to get into it more then 26mm is good (WL makes a 24-26 adjustable front). These are also very good sizes if you are not a smooth driver as they won't make things too "darty" with super quick tuck of the front end into the apex. For autocross junkies or track whores who are smooth overall and can anticipate the "dartiness" then look at the 27 to 29mm front bar.

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SAS just there in manukau, i got my bushes and stuff there, priced up for the front and rear sway bars for my BH, i remember i thought it was a good price, and guys were helpfull as.

-smurff

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  • 2 weeks later...
 stance said:

Taken from Turn In Concept's:

So, what they heck the the point in my saying all that? Well, let's get back to the front swaybar. The front swaybar will increase the effective spring rate of the wheel without effecting the ride spring rate. In other words, it will help keep the suspension from compressing so much at the loaded corner. Less compression means less loss of camber. Less loss of camber means that you can tune to, and maximize the contact patch of the tire to resist that push. Now, one of the things you need to consider - just like you can't make something from nothing, you can't make a good contact patch if you have nothing to give it to begin. Because the suspension will still compress some you need some negative camber in the front to start with. See the bajillion threads on alignment specs for where to start.

Now, for the second item I'd like to bring up something I've thought long and hard about for a long time. For ease I'll call it the philosphical side of the front suspension. Here's what we've got - a car that understeers or pushes quite a bit. Sure, you could throw a big bar in the rear and get the rear end to step out to help eliminate that understeer, but I feel that this is the wrong approach. The front of the car is still pushing, but the rear just happens to be stepping out at a faster rate than the front. The net result is a wider than what I feel is necessary lateral travel of the car. In other words, the rear is whipping around to point the front of the car where you want it to go, but the front of the car is still sliding sideways and taking the whole thing sideways making for a wider path than really is needed.

See, this stems from my philosophy that move oversteer does not necessarily mean less understeer. The front is still pushing. I feel the fix for this is to setup the front end of the car to truly reduce understeer as much as possible. This will make the front tuck in more, and while your tires will be resisting more lateral acceleration taking more grip from straight line acceleration (think traction circle), you'll be able to unwind from the turn faster thus getting you back toward the acceleration portion sooner than your competition. In other words, you'll be able to drive a tighter, and more controlled line.

Additionally, by reducing understeer as much as possible you won't have to set up the car for so much oversteer. This will also lead to more control, a tighter line, and the ability to accelerate sooner.

Now, that's great an all, but if you're looking for a simple answer as to what size bar to get then here it is (I'm giving these in terms of whiteline bars as I am most familiar with them):

Rear - 22mm to 24mm, but if you go to 24mm then you really want to think hard about upgrading your springs. If you go higher than 24mm then you are taking the wrong approach and trying to fix shortcomings of your springs with swaybars, and this is not the right way to do it. Get a proper spring for what you do, and then fine tune with a swaybar.

Front - for the street and mild autocross, and mild track work look at 24mm up front. If you start to get into it more then 26mm is good (WL makes a 24-26 adjustable front). These are also very good sizes if you are not a smooth driver as they won't make things too "darty" with super quick tuck of the front end into the apex. For autocross junkies or track whores who are smooth overall and can anticipate the "dartiness" then look at the 27 to 29mm front bar.[/i]

I've got a adjustable 22mm rear and a 24mm front bar , with coil overs and it works really well, this was the theory I followed when choosing anti roll bars

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 Hailz said:

Looking to upgrade the original swaybars on my BG Legacy and apparently Whiteline are the way to go, for my car they offer an extra 2mm on the 20mm already in the front and 1mm extra from the 19mm already in the rear, apparently this will give me +50% F and +25% R better performance, anyone had this kind of kit fitted with good/average results?

What model BG is it ? The late model BD/BG had a bigger front arb that can be swapped to the eariler models.

Its been a while since i last played with leggy arb's but I think the front arb of the BD/BG is the same as a BE/BH. So you may be able to use that whiteline part.

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 BC5RA']

[quote name='Stoffa said:

I've got a adjustable 22mm rear and a 24mm front bar , with coil overs and it works really well, this was the theory I followed when choosing anti roll bars

/quote]

Interesting, is this what you have them set at; or just the mean adjustments?

have you also tested with a larger rear to see how that felt compared to your larger front..?

edit: just read opticals point, mine doesnt have dccd hence why i run larger in the rear. I cant get it as tail happy as the guys running dccd eh..

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 Optical said:
do you have dccd out of interest?

that's what i use too, but others without dccd reckon it's crap...

What were their comments about running that setup?

Depending on how much droop travel his coilovers have, going with a big rear bar/small front (instead of the 24/22 he has) would cause bad inside wheel lift.

What coilovers are you using Stoffa?

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 stance']

[quote name='Optical said:

do you have dccd out of interest?

that's what i use too, but others without dccd reckon it's crap...

/quote]

What were their comments about running that setup?

Out of control understeer. Compared to me who gets none...

I wouldnt ever run bigger than a 22mm rear bar on a gc8 unless i wanted to do a gymkana or something where tight turning and low speeds are involved

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