Bolt in cage?? Cert?

[QRAF]

 evlRA said:

My cucso bolt in half cage Definitely stiffened up the chassis, how could it not

here's someone with a cage who disagrees ???

[madmike]

AFAIK.

If you wanna bolt in a cage and rely on it to save your arse... Go right ahead.

But i would personally rather walk than rely on a bolt in cage saving my pretty wee butt in a crash..

[QRAF]

i don't want it for safety your getting me all wrong i was just trying to say its to improve the handling.

I don't want a cage i don't have enough room in my car as it is. i'm 6ft4

[Guest dynofiend]

Sorry guys, but a properly bolted in cage is perfectly acceptable in non competitive motorsport. Just because its not FIA certified or not WOfable dont discount it. I can tell you for a fact that bolt in cages are allowed in pretty much all 'clubman' level events in UK motorsport, which has an incredibly strict governing body and rules and regs. Of course weld ins are better.

Lets make a differenciation between the mass produced bolt in 'cusco/show style' cages, where the important aspects are ease of fitment, and look, and proper bolt in cages, which are designed to be used in low level motorsport.

Someone talked about the bolted parts in bolt in cages acting like a hinge. Dear me. Most bolt in cages are held in on each foot by at least 4 M12 high tensile bolts, fitted onto load spreading steel plates. They are about as flexible as the bolt arrangement holding your wheel to the hub.

All cages will stiffen the chassis to a degree. Torsional loads are imparted through all car bodies front to rear. Adding any kind of structure will stiffen this to a degree. The bigger and stiffer the cage, the more it will stiffen. Even a 4 point rear cage will add some torsion stiffness. Its physics! Whether this 'improves' handling is a matter for debate. Its unlikely to make any tangible difference in lap times, but the car will feel a bit more taught. Its not realy the primary aim for a cage though, and really, is a side effect and should be viewed as such.

I will however agree with the cage vs helmet arguement. Cages IMO should not be used without full harnesses and fixed buckets, ever. And mostly used with a helmet. In other words, only if you use your car for track or sport, and dont drive it much on the road.

Ill also agree with the padding points mentioned. The pukka high density FIA padding should be used. Pipe lagging, or cheaper foam is next to useless.

[driftrex]

 dynofiend said:

Sorry guys, but a properly bolted in cage is perfectly acceptable in non competitive motorsport. Just because its not FIA certified or not WOfable dont discount it. I can tell you for a fact that bolt in cages are allowed in pretty much all 'clubman' level events in UK motorsport, which has an incredibly strict governing body and rules and regs. Of course weld ins are better.

Lets make a differenciation between the mass produced bolt in 'cusco/show style' cages, where the important aspects are ease of fitment, and look, and proper bolt in cages, which are designed to be used in low level motorsport.

Someone talked about the bolted parts in bolt in cages acting like a hinge. Dear me. Most bolt in cages are held in on each foot by at least 4 M12 high tensile bolts, fitted onto load spreading steel plates. They are about as flexible as the bolt arrangement holding your wheel to the hub.

All cages will stiffen the chassis to a degree. Torsional loads are imparted through all car bodies front to rear. Adding any kind of structure will stiffen this to a degree. The bigger and stiffer the cage, the more it will stiffen. Even a 4 point rear cage will add some torsion stiffness. Its physics! Whether this 'improves' handling is a matter for debate. Its unlikely to make any tangible difference in lap times, but the car will feel a bit more taught. Its not realy the primary aim for a cage though, and really, is a side effect and should be viewed as such.

I will however agree with the cage vs helmet arguement. Cages IMO should not be used without full harnesses and fixed buckets, ever. And mostly used with a helmet. In other words, only if you use your car for track or sport, and dont drive it much on the road.

Ill also agree with the padding points mentioned. The pukka high density FIA padding should be used. Pipe lagging, or cheaper foam is next to useless.

this is very true, unfortunately most seem to be going for the cusco/showcages which do next to nothing instead of the properly designed bolt-ins intended for motorsport use like you were saying.

[QRAF]

 dynofiend said:

Sorry guys, but a properly bolted in cage is perfectly acceptable in non competitive motorsport. Just because its not FIA certified or not WOfable dont discount it. I can tell you for a fact that bolt in cages are allowed in pretty much all 'clubman' level events in UK motorsport, which has an incredibly strict governing body and rules and regs. Of course weld ins are better.

Lets make a differenciation between the mass produced bolt in 'cusco/show style' cages, where the important aspects are ease of fitment, and look, and proper bolt in cages, which are designed to be used in low level motorsport.

Someone talked about the bolted parts in bolt in cages acting like a hinge. Dear me. Most bolt in cages are held in on each foot by at least 4 M12 high tensile bolts, fitted onto load spreading steel plates. They are about as flexible as the bolt arrangement holding your wheel to the hub.

All cages will stiffen the chassis to a degree. Torsional loads are imparted through all car bodies front to rear. Adding any kind of structure will stiffen this to a degree. The bigger and stiffer the cage, the more it will stiffen. Even a 4 point rear cage will add some torsion stiffness. Its physics! Whether this 'improves' handling is a matter for debate. Its unlikely to make any tangible difference in lap times, but the car will feel a bit more taught. Its not realy the primary aim for a cage though, and really, is a side effect and should be viewed as such.

I will however agree with the cage vs helmet arguement. Cages IMO should not be used without full harnesses and fixed buckets, ever. And mostly used with a helmet. In other words, only if you use your car for track or sport, and dont drive it much on the road.

Ill also agree with the padding points mentioned. The pukka high density FIA padding should be used. Pipe lagging, or cheaper foam is next to useless.

thank you this is the kind of answer i was after, i feel like i learnt something and don't feel like i was totally wrong.

[evlRA]

like i said my bolt in rear cage added stiffness to my chassis and i knew this because of first hand experience. Some people on here think their imagination is more credible than first hand experience.

[driftrex]

 evlRA said:

like i said my bolt in rear cage added stiffness to my chassis and i knew this because of first hand experience. Some people on here think their imagination is more credible than first hand experience.

out of interest, was the cage the only modification to see the difference? or were other parts changed at the same time?

[evlRA]

Just the cage, had it out the other week to put padding on it and took the beast for a blat through the country side and its quite noticeable.

[QRAF]

 evlRA said:

Just the cage, had it out the other week to put padding on it and took the beast for a blat through the country side and its quite noticeable.

This is the internet people are allowed there opinions

how can he be delusional he has one and is speaking from example.

Found one that might please the masses i know it won't please everyone.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts-accessories/Subaru/Suspension/auction-240463399.htm

[evlRA]

nothing like a clubsub debate

[QRAF]

 loren said:

there is no point in continuing this discussion qraf. you only hear what you want to, or

have a really short memory?

you may as well just read the whole thread from the beginning, because it is getting very

repetitive.

sweet bro i'll put it to the side.

like i said i don't want one, i just miss my strut brace after putting my tmic on and hate the flex it causes going around roundabouts feels like my front wheels are lifting off.

then my mate said i should get a cage like him as its not about safety its about stiffening the ride so i was just trying to confirm this.

Which i have thanks EvilRA

Loren have you had a cage before so your speaking form experience aye?

[Koom]

 QRAF said:

Something like that will have its benefits. As I said earlier, its about diagonal bracing (which that one has) and that will add stiffness. That also has proper shaped rear legs i.e. they are straight!!!!!!!!

Bolt in cages are able to be used in NZ motorsport. There is a whole bunch of details in the back of the motorsport manual that sho how you have to bolt these to the car and how they have to be bolted together. I don't have an issue with something that can be bolted in (rather than welded to the car). My issue is with the Japanese "show cages" which as Driftrex noted are the main type that people are talking about when talking about "bolt in cages". Those things are death traps and will also do about the same amount of stiffening of the chassis as having your mate sit in the back seat and hold his arms across the B-Pillars.

[WRXER]

Interesting, I never knew u could actually get bolt in cages that were up to scratch for NZ motorsport. I've only ever seen the japanese type "cages". Learnt something new today.

Debate is always good, and new things can be learnt. To be honest, I would recommend with any cage. If you are unsure on rules/regs/safety aspects then a good discussion with a local cage builder/someone in the know is an absolute must.

[evlRA]

OK so i was working on my car today and thought id throw up some photos of my cage which is bolt in and is certified and is inspected and enables me to run a 10 second quarter mile at the drag-strip without getting banned. I found the roll cage added stiffness to the rear of the chassis however this was just a side effect and was not the reason behind the cage.

Basically the inspector checks that the cage is:

- Positioned behind the front seats (out of the way of your body)

- Rear seats are removed and the car is essentially a 2 seater

- there are no dangerous bars or flanges or anything in front of the seats

- There is a horizontal bar

- The back bars are straight with no bends

- There are steel backing plates on the other side of the mountings and appropriate nuts and bolts

- The roll cage is padded with appropriate padding

I have added some pics..

Hopefully this adds to some clubsubers knowledge

[driftrex]

lol yea now thats a cage. that looks awesome. now that will stiffen your chassis if thats what your after

[Guest]

Nah......this is what you call a proper cage, light weight hardened straw.

[BC5RA]

 loren said:

That isn't a cage, it's a roll bar.

this is a cage.

http://picasaweb.google.com/loren.brookes/RollcageHomolagtionPics

Nice work Loren, who did the Job?

[DRFVDR]

 evlRA said:

nothing like a clubsub debate

Does that make it a Mass Debate heheh

[D-Style]

That bolt in-cage i can already see some weak points.......

anyone notice the bolts holding it together? 1x ummm M8? or M6 HT bolt per join?

[evlRA]

 loren said:

That isn't a cage, it's a roll bar.

this is a cage.

http://picasaweb.google.com/loren.brookes/RollcageHomolagtionPics

Yep its referred to as a roll bar or a half cage. Nowhere near the strength of a full weld in.

Yours is nice what is the car intended for? I plan to go with a full weld in after i upgrade brakes and suspension for the track and move the focus away from strip/street to track/hilclimb

[Koom]

 D-Style said:

That bolt in-cage i can already see some weak points.......

anyone notice the bolts holding it together? 1x ummm M8? or M6 HT bolt per join?

If they're M10 (High Tensile) then they possibly meet the standard for MNZ.

Goto pages 39-40 to see Rollcage Bolt in Requirements

If built correctly, clamped fastening like that is acceptable.

[evlRA]

How much power you making loren? i know what you mean about keeping up with the evos.. my mate has a 440kw evo2 RS and that thing is death on wheels haha

[QRAF]

 evlRA said:

How much power you making loren? i know what you mean about keeping up with the evos.. my mate has a 440kw evo2 RS and that thing is death on wheels haha

wow the guy whose bought the half cage is aiming for 300+kw in his evo 2

when i had my dyno the evo before me ran 319.2kw atw with a miss

[evlRA]

no doubt there are some fast evos around especially the early 123 models, i swear there are more of them are running gt3540's than there are running stock.

my mates one i was talking about has had over 80k pumped into it, magnus engine build 2.4L running a gt42r garrett 286deg cams 5speed dog box and locked front and centre diffs with a rear lsd. Made 440kw @ 22psi on pump gas and 570kw @ 35psi on c16 oh yer and the limiter is set at 10,000rpm