The Generation 3 Revision D Legacy Detonation Problem

[gazzy2000]

Hi, I thought i start this thread as there seem to be more and more ppl asking about this, and in light of Garryg's threads on the same subject.

Feel free to add your results and discussions on this subject, maybe some ulternative solutions.... or what have you

The majority of gen3 revD legacys suffer from bad detonation, this is due to the fact that the ECUs are tuned for 100 Octane in Japan. Obviuoisly we dont get 100 Octane at the pump here in NZ and in some places not evan 98 is available.

Retarding the ignition timing is the key to eleminating the det. this requires a tunable ECU.

It is well known that the RevD legacy ECU is flashable/tuneable. But initial discussions cast doubt as to how successful this was in eliminating the det problem. Other questions were raised like "what after market tunable ECUs would work with revDs?"

read on......

It was found that reflashing/retuning the factory revD ECU is the fix i.e. to tune the ECU for 98 (or 95) octane.

For this to be done your car needs (or should) go on the dyno, trained tuners/specialists will reflash your ECU putting your car through all driving conditions while monitoring, modifying and testing in real time until they find the pefect tune for your car and the detonation problem is gone burger.

The following is what NZEFI in Christchurch had to say, they are a very reputable tuner garage with full 4wd dyno and some gurus on EFi & turbo vehicles http://www.nzefi.com/

This is what they said:

- They said there is no Link ECU for the rev d Legacy

- No link ECUs support sequencial turbo control

- said the det problem is rampant in the rev ds, they do heaps of them!

- A reflash will fix your problem

- I said "I have heard that the reflash has not fixed the det problem in some cases" he said "all of their reflash tunes on the dyno have fixed the det on rev D leggys no worries, the problem lies if the reflash is done for 98 fuel and the customer goes and run 95 octane OR if there is something unforseen causing the det, this is uncommon"

- I said "how tunable are they when reflashing, i.e. with links you can keep pulling the timing until the det is gone? so are the factory revd ECUs limited to how much you can tune them?" he said "they just keep relashing until the problems are fixed, so yes they have a broad reflashing capabilites enabling us to tune any found problems away"

- He said " some times we have to reflash 30-40 times to keep pulling the timing etc, that is normal, but we dont let you drive away until it is spot on"

- he said "they can tune for 95 Octane but it takes a little longer

- they fully recommend 98 octane

- their price for the reflash was $1152

ALSO: I said "as for the single turbo conversion being an option... example: the BH5 revC ECU is compatible with the V5/6 STI ECU and BG leggys ECU with v3/4 etc etc, is there any late version STI ECU that is plug in play so that you can do the single turbo conversion?" they said "unsure at this point"

that begs the question: do we in clubsub know of anyone thats done the TT to ST on a rev D using a factory STI ECU?)

Your answer here:

[Guest]

My understanding is that the Rev D's run a slightly higher compression ratio thereby making finding an STI ECU to suit rather tricky.

I've had my pinging problems tuned out by Torque Performance in Auckland. I'd say it is 98% gone. On a very hot day after sitting in traffic for ages, there is sometimes a brief pinging noise but it is there a few seconds and then gone.

The other option is to load up each tank of petrol with octane booster but that gets expensive pretty quickly.

[gazzy2000]

 SpotMe said:

My understanding is that the Rev D's run a slightly higher compression ratio thereby making finding an STI ECU to suit rather tricky.

cool, so fair to say, for a TT to single T conversion for the revD... a Link ECU is the only way, meaning the TT to ST is not really a cheap fix/solution to the revD detonation problem.

cheers

[GravelBen]

Interesting, det doesn't seem to be an issue for mine on 98 but on 95 you can feel the ECU pulling things right back to prevent it. Though mine is an NZ-new (but Jap spec) car so perhaps they gave them a tweak before they sold them back then? Or maybe its just that its a relatively low km's, well maintained example, who knows.

[GravelBen]

 SpotMe said:

My understanding is that the Rev D's run a slightly higher compression ratio ...

Thats right AFAIK, 9.5:1 compared with 9:1 - but they apparently have different pistons, cams and a bunch of other stuff (like sodium filled valves, not sure if they used those before Rev-D or not) so its probably not entirely fair to compare based only on compression ratio.

[Garryg]

Well, I'm certainly looking forward to all the feedback to this thread...

As Spotme has said...and probably answered a question....mine is very bad at the moment, probably the warmer weather??

I can't give any considerable acceleration, as I have a fear I will blow the engine...YES, it's that bad.

I had a call from the garage I bought the car from today...out of the Blue!! Which has got me thinking?? They said "Are you sure it hasn't thrown No.4 Piston"? How would I know??

I've had it in to 2 garages, they both think it's just a detonation issue, so that's what I'm following up on!

Will probably put it in to Torque Performance and get them to resolve the issue...

I'll keep you updated.

Cheers

[Guest]

I take it then that you are in Aucks?

David at Torque Performance can plug in his laptop and see how bad the det is currently and advise further. You could also get another member to go with you for a drive to see whether it is that much worse than most of them.

[Guest]

This is the same problem that Australian delivered B4s have which are also Rev Ds. Some owners report that having a front mount intercooler helps. But the ECUtek tune seems to be the most popular route to tackle the problem.

Are there any Piggyback systems that have been used to counter the problem?

It would be so much easier to just to do a complete sti single conversion by replacing the factory engine with the sti engine, ECU and everything else. ;D

[Guest]

I know that mine runs like a bag of shite for a couple days if accidentally put 95 in it... looses A LOT of power, completely looses the powerband altogether but still runs smooth... takes around half a tank to come right... only done it twice - never again. Only run on BP Ultimate, even runs like shite on Mobil 8000. No obvious detonation that i can hear ever...

I replaced my MAP sensor (purple sticked black thing on the throttle body) on advice from Gravel Ben about 6 months ago when i was having boost issues - fixed my problem straight away, but never threw any codes.

[Garryg]

 BigWillieStyles said:

This is the same problem that Australian delivered B4s have which are also Rev Ds. Some owners report that having a front mount intercooler helps. But the ECUtek tune seems to be the most popular route to tackle the problem.

Are there any Piggyback systems that have been used to counter the problem?

It would be so much easier to just to do a complete sti single conversion by replacing the factory engine with the sti engine, ECU and everything else. ;D

Anyone got any idea what a single turbo conversion costs?? I'll pay someone to do that if it's beneficial....any takers!!!

[99GTB]

Link storm wire in, tune, single turbo exhaust manifold, turbo, intercooler ypipe, intake pipe, exhaust downpipe. (probably missed the odd little thing)

Main cost would be ecu and tune, ~$3000 all up maybe, If you do it yourself/with the help of someone that knows what they're doing.

Not worth changing complete engine.

[subieboy]

Retarding the ignition timing is the key to eliminating the det. this requires a tunable ECU.

This is your most cost effective option... I have seen it done and have heard no complaints from those driving cars that have had this done.

[GravelBen]

 subieboy said:

this requires a tunable ECU.

The factory ECU is tunable.

[gazzy2000]

 Garryg said:

Anyone got any idea what a single turbo conversion costs?? I'll pay someone to do that if it's beneficial....any takers!!!

Ohh its benificial for sure, the single turbo performance is far superior to the TT...more like STI performance etc, and fitting a plug-in Link ECU (of which i am guessing would be made for V7 WRX or equivalent) means you could tune you wee heart out so the det issues would be gone.

Its just not the most cost effective option (oh and dont forget Dyno costs in there too)

[Garryg]

Got a meeting with the gut at the garage I bought it from at 1.30....I'm hoping they will stump up the money for the reflash??

If not, my second option will be to request to change the car....I'll let you know what happens!

Cheers

[gazzy2000]

 Garryg said:

Got a meeting with the gut at the garage I bought it from at 1.30....I'm hoping they will stump up the money for the reflash??

If not, my second option will be to request to change the car....I'll let you know what happens!

Cheers

haha nice one, rip into it good luck!

Go the consumer gaurantee!

[Garryg]

Hi All,

They followed the consumers law exactly.....If you can satisfactory repair the product offer an alternative!!

They did have a few Subby's...another B4 and an RS30, but I thought I'd just be buying similar problems.......

So SORRY guy's, I have defected!!

I bought a V35 Skyline 350GT-8......Hope fully this provides me with trouble free motoring??

I'm still going to keep popping in here now and again though as you're a great bunch of guys (& girls)...

All the Best!

[aim]

6 speed?

[Garryg]

 aim said:

6 speed?

8 Speed.....

[gazzy2000]

Nice one Garry, thats quite good they looked after you i spose, it cud hv been a hua of a lot worse thats for sure.

But dude, you ditched the subaru, WTF ;D Nah, i joke . yud at least better post us up a pic of the new beast

[Garryg]

 gazzy2000 said:

Nice one Garry, thats quite good they looked after you i spose, it cud hv been a hua of a lot worse thats for sure.

But dude, you ditched the subaru, WTF ;D Nah, i joke . yud at least better post us up a pic of the new beast

Will do....I'll just put it up on this thread....

Cheers

[Guest]

Its been a while since this thread was posted to and because the owner DEFECTED never the less i feel it should still be persued, any ways some interesting finds .

Firstly my car was detuned heavily, pulled timing heaps and added heaps of Fuel, and now i have a super slow legacy.

But after all that gues what no more detonation even on bad fuel like 91 or 92 octane not sure what we get here.

But this is what i have found even though it has been heavily detuned i still get detonation on take off or when the car is loaded like reversing up a hill or slight incline if i dont rev no det, but the min i have part throttle like 15 % and i start moving backward i hear the det coming in .......

Now that leads me to believe there is something else going on here.

A change in compression ratio can seriously cause det but wait, most new cars 20Valve 4age and other newer na cars run a very high compression ratio ????

so they have been a few driving around here and i have had chance to drive a few of them, and when i drive them around i find no det not even a sign even at low revs, so essentially we missing something here.....

4ages 20valves run like a 10 to 1 comression ratio and hence they should be more prone to det on bad fuel ???/

So maybe we can brain storm through this see what ideas we can come up with and solve the issue ....

[Flippymoi]

The compression ratio is only a ratio of the change of volume the gas inside the cylinder as the piston goes through a cycle. when the car is on boost you cannot compare this ratio with another engine like a 4age. As the true pressure of the gas in the cylinder is higher. They only increased the compression to give better drivability off boost.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

[mattapo]

if somewhere in chch has one and would like to be a guni pig i would like to see if i can flash the ecu of a rev D. I won't actually change anything to start with, just take a copy of the rom on it and then can look at tuning it to remove det

[twinturboboy]

just to bring an old thread up again I have some Q\'s

1 - Why do we not hear of people melting pistons from det?

2 - There are heaps of Rev Ds around and surely not all owners would get them reflashed?

3 - apart from lower octane fuel and the AFM what else can cause det?

4 - there are heaps of high performance cars in NZ why dont they seem to suffer from this? - or is it only a Subaru problem