Front-mount on worked 1st-gen. Worth it

[BLSTIC]

For the purposes of this conversation, worked includes 7.5:1 compression pistons, wrx heads, a 2.5" exhaust, cold-air intake, and an effectively free-boosted VF10.

I would hope to have maybe 230kw at the flywheel.

Is going to a large front-mounted intercooler going to have much effect at this level? Aside from adding toss factor of course (I'll probably paint it black anyway though).

Note that this does NOT mean that my new engine is built, just that I'm bored and thinking of what else I can do as well.

Thanks

Ben

[Munkvy]

For your purposes arent you gonna need a fair bit larger turbo? As a VF10 is about the smallest turbo you can find on a single turbo EJ....

[Guest iceboychch]

free boost = fail!!!!!!!!!

dont do it!!!!!!

get urself a td-05h or similar sized vf series turbo..

[BC5RA]

Why would you even consider a VF10 free boosted or not?

[BLSTIC]

Two reasons

1. I want torque as low as is practically possible while getting decent power. A small turbo pushed to it's limits is about the only way to easily do that

2. That's what I have.

I'm not going to weld the wastegate shut or anything, but I'm hoping to run around the 20-22psi mark. Apparently that's about all the VF10's will pump out without being horribly, horribly inneficient.

But anyway, will a front-mount be of any benifit at this power level, noting that the water-air style of intercooler is currently fitted.

[BC5RA]

I'd say after about 16 psi the VF10 will just not flow anything more just hot air.

In saying that yes a front mount inter cooler to cool that hot air may be of some use.

I can't see a free boosting VF10 flowing enough air for 230kw at the crank.

[G-unit]

would a vf10 even handle that high psi?

[wildturkey]

you will find lots of varied opinions on this one and prolly not much hard evidence. front mount vs top mount vs water to air. G unit will prolly have something to say about this when he sees it cause I think he did the conversion on his gen1 (or was it gen 2?) from w2a to front mount and wasn't that impressed with the power gains.......or the extra lag.

If u can mod ur manifold to flip around then u could reduce the lag and then maybe reap the full benefits of front mount. Don't dismiss the water to air set up on gen 1s. they are very efficient and can be made even more so by replacing the factory radiator with a bigger one. The factory one is prolly only half the width of the water radiator. It's maybe a bit more weight to carry around once the system is full of water but very efficient. Top mount setup to me doesn't seem to have the surface cooling area of front mount but isn't (i believe) affected to the same degree by lag either because the air isn't travelling through 1 or 2 meters of pipe. Being a gen 1 owner running w2a......my opinion is completely biased of course .

oh....and ur gona run a vf10 at 22psi? maybe its possible but pay to check out the different outputs of the VF series turbos. I think there's a thread in here somewhere which lists the different characteristics of all the VF series. I would have thought VF22 or 23 at a minimum if 230 atw is what ur after?

[Joker]

just do it - fact or fiction you will know for sure after....

I would lean towards a smaller FMIC just to keep piping/IC volumes down

[legacy666]

dont do it. After years of toying with the idea, this is what I'm told. The standard water to air setup will handle all your needs, you dont have the hassle of getting pipework or bumper done for a front mount and if your driving around town stopping at lites etc your not guna keep your intake temp down. spend the money on a vf23 or 22 and a decent ecu (link etc).

[wildturkey]

just do it...don't do it...just do it...don't do it.....lol

we're not much help are we

keep asking questions bro......ask mechanics too

[Guest iceboychch]

hey m8, you wana keep your w2a setup ay.. that puppies full with coolant.. and the vent in the bonnet blows air onto your turbo.. ( nice cool air ) think of it this way in regard to fmic yeah they look cool ( if your that way inclined ) and yeah theres alot more pipe than the w2a so its more of a distance the air has to travel, shorter pipe FTW, which is why a flipped manifold was suggested ( even shorter pipe than normal for fmic.

ditch the vf-10.. seriously, get your self a td-05h or vf off an sti...

cut the freeboosting crap ( for real )

make sure you got a nice flowing exhaust and down pipe, service it regularly and look after it, yeah its fun to boost.. however think of the higher temps and what it does to your engine !

good luck i hope it all works out for you.

[G-unit]

stick with the w2a, same as a f-mount really but better ;D

god i remember the lag i used 2 get in my gtir when it had the massive top mount=suks

[BC5RA]

Fark me theres some real thinkers in this thread... :

 iceboychch said:

hey m8, you wana keep your w2a setup ay.. that puppies full with coolant.. and the vent in the bonnet blows air onto your turbo.. ( nice cool air ) think of it this way in regard to fmic yeah they look cool ( if your that way inclined ) and yeah theres alot more pipe than the w2a so its more of a distance the air has to travel, shorter pipe FTW, which is why a flipped manifold was suggested ( even shorter pipe than normal for fmic.

ditch the vf-10.. seriously, get your self a td-05h or vf off an sti...

cut the freeboosting crap ( for real )

make sure you got a nice flowing exhaust and down pipe, service it regularly and look after it, yeah its fun to boost.. however think of the higher temps and what it does to your engine !

good luck i hope it all works out for you.

For starters the vent is there to let hot air out when the car is stationary.

Sorry to say but the AWIC is not going to meet anybodys needs after 180kw@wheels.

If you want to argue that point then go ahead.

[BC5RA]

 G-unit said:

stick with the w2a, same as a f-mount really but better ;D

god i remember the lag i used 2 get in my gtir when it had the massive top mount=suks

Jesus. thats an untrue statement.

[G-unit]

why? water unit flows 2 the front

[BLSTIC]

Any front mount I will get will probably be painted black. I prefer to create confusion in my victims/admirers (yeah... admirers...). This is the same reason any toss-off valve I fit will be a plumb-back design.

I am not concerned too much about the cooling performance of the top-mount, that isn't an issue (if all else fails I can have a second reservior filled with ice water that the coolant can flow through). The issue is the pressure drop across it. If it gets any worse than 3psi it's too much for my tastes, but I don't know when I am going to get to that point.

I guess I'm going to find out just how hard a VF10 can go...

I'll dyno once before the new engine, once just after the new engine has been run in, and again with the big injectors and management modifications, on higher boost. The pressure drop across the stock water-air intercooler will be measured then.

[BC5RA]

Yes, i circulates to the front. is cooled by the ambient air then returned to the tank.

It's not better than a front mount necessarily, there are some draw backs.

For starters a front mount is a much simpler design therefore requires less maintenance, the cost of modifing the WAIC to flow as well as a FMIC would be pointless given the results of a FMIC.

Have a look at some of the rides kicking around with over 200kw at the wheels.

In saying all of that i won't chop up my front bar to fit a FMIC but then i'm not chasing extra kw.

[G-unit]

 BLSTIC said:

Any front mount I will get will probably be painted black. I prefer to create confusion in my victims/admirers (yeah... admirers...). This is the same reason any toss-off valve I fit will be a plumb-back design.

I am not concerned too much about the cooling performance of the top-mount, that isn't an issue (if all else fails I can have a second reservior filled with ice water that the coolant can flow through). The issue is the pressure drop across it. If it gets any worse than 3psi it's too much for my tastes, but I don't know when I am going to get to that point.

I guess I'm going to find out just how hard a VF10 can go...

I'll dyno once before the new engine, once just after the new engine has been run in, and again with the big injectors and management modifications, on higher boost. The pressure drop across the stock water-air intercooler will be measured then.

do what u want, end of the day shes ya car, itl look nicer with the fmic anyway, my taste anyway, post results

[legacy666]

if your sitting at the lights or start line in 30 degree heat then your front mount aint guna be doing much to cool your intake temp.as opposed to a water to air which always has coolant running thru it.

and anyone who thinks the standard water to air wont handle past 180kws ,try 240kws at the wheels with a water to air.

[BC5RA]

 legacy666 said:

if your sitting at the lights or start line in 30 degree heat then your front mount aint guna be doing much to cool your intake temp.as opposed to a water to air which always has coolant running thru it.

and anyone who thinks the standard water to air wont handle past 180kws ,try 240kws at the wheels with a water to air.

You want to back that up?

[wildturkey]

here's a site that might answer some questions about water to air setups..........interesting read

http://www.frozenboost.com/stpg.php?page_id=water_to_air

I think you may have grossly understated the efficiencies of the water to air setup BC

here's some more read of the advantages of water to air over air to air.........especially the bottom section which talks about faster response from the water to air system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler

here's one for the air to air converts.................http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html#FAQ_5

[wildturkey]

lol.......good back up

[legacy666]

forget the front mount, go for the nos.cool your intake temp and get an extra 50hp.

[BC5RA]

 wildturkey']

here's a site that might answer some questions about water to air setups..........interesting read

http://www.frozenboost.com/stpg.php?page_id=water_to_air

I think you may have grossly understated the efficiencies of the water to air setup BC

here's some more read of the advantages of water to air over air to air.........especially the bottom section which talks about faster response from the water to air system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler

here's one for the air to air converts.................http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html#FAQ_5

Not at all, in fact i'm a huge supporter of the RS water to air intercooler system, i've never knocked the WAIC application at all; i mean we are talking about the WAIC system on Gen 1 Legacys right? :

No point in posting up unrelated information, here is some real world material about RS WAIC who actually own and modify these cars.

http://www.rslibertyclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45165&highlight=waic

It all depends on the application i've seen WAIC setups run very well on a drag type situation (many use FMIC) and rarely on a street setup but then i haven't seen everything, : how many cars do you see lapping Tskuba Circuit with a WAIC?

;D I find it laughable that you think i'm arguing against the WAIC! I own a BC5. It has the OE WAIC. I wouldn't change it.

[quote name='legacy666 said:

dont really need to back it up, just expressing my view and experiance after owning an rs for 11 years and had having it built at possum bourne motorsport you get to hear a few opinions from people who know what they are talking about. oh and the 12.1 quarter mile i ran and the dyno read out that says 242kws show that the standard water to air can handle the job

I am also expressing my views and experiences, i have seen all types of setups on these models, and only one that made 200kw@wheels with the standard WAIC the rest all ran FMIC, if you have a 242kw@wheels dyno sheet using the standard WAIC then that's impressive... i'd like to see your setup; and if you do then I have seen a man eat his own head.