Front-mount on worked 1st-gen. Worth it

[Guest]

If your gonna be spending abit of $$ buy a water to air cooler that is made to handle that power most if not all aftermarket coolers are made to handle well over 600hp...and upgrade the heat exchanger/radiator...something like this with a little modding will be good rekon http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=203889007

w2a setup is the way to go

no lag

better cooling for the big az vf10

less work

no need for all this twisted turbo flipped manifold BS

http://www.frozenboost.com/

check em out for the w2a setups...there was a guy on trade me selling the whole kit for $800.

[wildturkey]

ohhh the come backs are bound to be endless and increasingly edgy as the debate roars on lol.......nothing like a healthy debate right boys? Anyway....back to BLSTIC and his original post.......sounds like you have plenty of options there bro. Good luck

BC...I couldn't get into that link.....asking me for logon?

[Guest]

sign up wild they have some good stuff on tht forum too

[wildturkey]

ok I check it out

[BC5RA]

As above sign up, good stuff, relative to our cars on that site.

Once again if i win big wednesday i'd look in WAIC for my ride, i'm not a big fan of the front mount intercooler.

But something has to be said for a non parasitic system as the FMIC, it weighs a fair bit less, requires no maintenance and would be easier to install.

[BLSTIC]

Water-air cores requiring maintainance is a joke. Mine hasn't missed a beat, all I do is check the coolant level. It only needed filling once, 6 months ago when I got the car. I'm assuming that was because dad had removed it to repair the left hand side head.

And yes water does circulate continously.

[BC5RA]

 BLSTIC said:

Water-air cores requiring maintenance is a joke. Mine hasn't missed a beat, all I do is check the coolant level. It only needed filling once, 6 months ago when I got the car. I'm assuming that was because dad had removed it to repair the left hand side head.

And yes water does circulate continuously.

A joke? ;D

Yeah.. you never need to clean out the core, or replace the water pump bearings or change over the relay solenoids.

Its a fact they do require maintenance. Having one go hassle free for 6 months doesn't qualify you to make a statement like that, but i suppose you'll now tell me you've owned an RS for 11 years plus and never had to replace a broken turbo to intercooler pipe or replace a water pump cause it got too noisy. Do you even know if your pump is still running the low and high speeds? :

[Guest iceboychch]

chill guys... 8)

[wildturkey]

turkey looks on with interest :-X

[BC5RA]

: I just not a fan of misinformation is all.

People will be using this site as a reference to modify there own Gen 1 Legacys, i love these cars.

legacy666 seriously would like to see your setup would love to be able to say the standard WAIC can suppport that much power at the wheels.

[BC5RA]

What turbocharger are you running on that setup...?

[BC5RA]

Well bro, i'd love to believe that you are making 242kw@wheels with that setup.

Could you post a picture of your dyno graph?

[BLSTIC]

 BC5RA said:

A joke?

Yeah.. you never need to clean out the core, or replace the water pump bearings or change over the relay solenoids.

Its a fact they do require maintenance. Having one go hassle free for 6 months doesn't qualify you to make a statement like that, but i suppose you'll now tell me you've owned an RS for 11 years plus and never had to replace a broken turbo to intercooler pipe or replace a water pump cause it got too noisy. Do you even know if your pump is still running the low and high speeds?

BC5RA - I was basing that on the fact that the car has been in my family since 1997 (imported then) and I know no major overhauls have taken place in that time They also failed to mention any freshly replaced parts (although that doesn't mean that there was no problems though). There's no saying that it didn't have fresh parts on it when it arrived (the coils had BF turbo written on them, so they are at least wrecker items).

No I'm not going to tell you I have owned the car for any more than 6 months, and in that time I have had to replace the coils, the exhaust manifold-turbo pipe (due again, must have got a dud. I hate doing the same job twice because of faulty parts), remove a rocker (head was going to be a PITA to remove in the car, and a lifter was jammed), replace two heater hoses, and discovered that my dual mode power steering is fauty. I don't know if the pump works on high speed or not, but that's an electrical thing, not a pump fault.

Now that you mention the pump bearings I do actually remember one issue I had. The pump didn't turn when I got the car, but stripping it revealed immaculate internals, and powering when apart (it turned) and re-assembly, with no replacement parts or cleaning, fixed the issue. I'm assuming being left dry was the culprit for the temporary siezure. Sorry about that.

Incedentally I have not had any age related issues with the intake plumbing (I snapped a fitting on the bow-off valve and the threads in the air box got stripped).

The turbo had no shaft play when I removed it to replace that pipe.

As for cleaning the core, I assume you are talking about the air part of the core, and I was planning on it, but an oil catch can got rid of the pre-turbo deposits, and when I pulled the intercooler off on tuesday for the heater hoses there was only the slightest film, so I didn't bother. I haven't tried to flush the water part of the core either.

The car had done ~270,000km when I got it, so I was extremely and pleasantly surprised about the condition of the turbo and intercooler pump. All the faults were to be expected after this long, with any car.

You were scarily accurate on the 11 years plus comment though... July 1997.

Incedentally re the 242kw @ wheels. Have you measured the pressure drop across the intercooler?

*edited first paragraph*

[legacy666]

seems you see the advantages of the water to air. And hey if things crap out like the intercooler pump or piping, trademe is the cheap way to get things going again. and with the hassle of buying and fitting a fronty and choppn the bumper, you could buy 10 water to air setups from the wrecker.

Anyway just letting you know that from my experience the standard setup works fine for reaching high hp. Other than that if your going for looks then stick a fronty on (they do look cool).

[Markmcrs]

legacy666,

Where do I start...

I was made aware of this thread due to the rather 'ambitious claim' you are making re; your car's power.

Seems that it is the source of amusement for quite a few people who unlike you have a clue.

A VF 23 @ 16psi making 242kw's ATW's!!!!

I know nothing of your history so I have to assume you've never looked around to see what anyone else has got with a VF 23 otherwise you'd surely be scratching your head at such a rediculous number.

I know of heaps of EJ20's running VF 23's, be it in Legacy's or WRX's and the MOST power I've seen (on a rolling dyno) is 210kw's @ 20psi.

That car was a bug eye WRX sedan that went on to run a 12.10 @ 114MPH.

A Gen 2 Legacy GT recently got 205kw's ATW's @ 20 psi with a VF23

I could go on and on and on.

I've had my RS Sedan for 9 years and it started with a WAIC - I ran a 12.8 with a TD05H @ 19psi.

I now have a front mount.

I can tell you this much for free - WAIC's are NOT good for GENUINE BIG HP.

Run that VF 23 @ 20psi and log the intake temps over a 1/4 mile and see just how much they've climbed, and that's just in 13-14secs.

Do the same with a decent FMIC and the temp spike will be nowhere near as bad AND with a FMIC the inlet temps will drop far quicker.

The absolute reality is that you are not making anywhere near 242kw's ATW's with a 23 @ 16psi - ANYONE else using that turbo and that level of boost typically falls into the 160-180kw's ATW's range.

A VF 23 @ 16psi in a RS Sedan will net around 105MPH all day every day regardless of ET - and that my freind does not = 242kw's ATW's on the HP chart, more like the power fiqure I've already quoted.

I see you claim to have run a 12.1 though - there is no way that was done with a VF 23 @ 16 psi alone.

It is physically impossible.

Either you ran more boost and/or NOS to get that time or you are concealing something else.

242kw's is good for 11's - I know coz I've run an 11.6 with that sort of power and it took alot more than a VF 23 to do it.

Mark.

[Guest]

Best I have seen on a ver 3 Sti type R & vf23 do 220kw at around 16/17psi - But that car had alot done to it. And like you i didn't believe it either lol

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8707/vf235gi.png

If you look at its compressor map it flows best at lower PR's.

Would you believe a car did an 11.7 on a vf39 ?

[zarnah]

haha this thread is gold!!! lol. my leggy is running front mount and my new leggy that im building is going to run exactly the same setup except use a water to air intercooler. How bout we line em' up, you boys put your money where ya mouth is and we have a good old fashioned drag race?! Front mount vs Water to Air........... the battle to end all battles!

[BLSTIC]

Alternatively someone with a first gen who is about to do a front-mount can lay down some before and after 3rd gear 2000-7000rpm times for us. That or we can wait a few months for me to do mine.

[Guest]

Like Mark, I too was pointed in this threads direction.

I always get some amusement out of seemingly fanciful power claims made with modifications that dont make the figures add up...based on popular agreed convention. Im all for pushing the boundaries of what is possible but then there is the ridiculous.

I'd want to see some real world performance figures from ole mate Barry before I can come at a claim of 242kwatw with the listed modifications.

FWIW my own Gen 1 has run to 11.8 at 116mph using a VF34P20. But the boost levels I was running were way out of the efficiency range of the turbo...Definately more than 16psi, and on an engine that is far more developed than and Sti engine!

[legacy666]

my claim is that 242 can be made using tha standard water to air setup, which I still stand by. My car spent 2 months at possum bourne motorsports before they even started there road car business, and I'll tell you that if you want a strong,powerful motor there was no place better. Possum Bournes original gen 1 legacy rally car pulled a 260kw with a water to air.which is what I based my set up on.And from the last few threads even you guys admitted that a water to air will pull over 200kw. And yeah I will admit that the boost was higher than 16psi, but that doesnt take away the fact that the intercooler is standard. But hey I dont expect everyone to believe me.

[Guest iceboychch]

rito..

now that this thread is turning into a S*** fight...

yeah its one of those things that ya either like or ya dont, at the end of the day.. they both do similar jobs.. they both can obviously handle 200kw+ yeah so ya wouldnt put a W2a on a 500hp monster but they are good for being standard and can handle a few extra kw's before ya need to change ya setup..

if it was me id run the w2a for now.. do ya mods.. see how it goes.. if its not handling it change it to a fmic and see if you get any improvements..

[Markmcrs]

 iceboychch said:

rito..

now that this thread is turning into a S*** fight...

It has?

This thread is like a kitten playing with a ball of string compared to some real sh1tfights on forums.

I'm not here to attack legacy666, the issue I have is that people making claims like he has leads to others wanting to emulate the setup expecting the same results - which anyone with even average experience knows is seriously far fetched.

Hey, he's already admitted the 242 wasn't from the VF 23 @ 16psi...

That is blindly obvious though, because there is a thing called physics - something that no one has yet been able to work outside of.

A vf 23 @ 16 psi will produce a certain amount of CFM of airflow and it dosen't matter if the EJ 20 was built by GOD himself and kissed by angels, it ain't going to get within a bulls roar of even 200kw's ATW's.

As for a WAIC, sure you can crack 200kw'a ATW's with one but it's FAR from a good setup.

Like I already said, log the inlet temps and you'll start to see just how poor they are.

My inlet temps with the WAIC were always 15 degrees above ambient during gentle cruising, as soon as the throttle was mashed the inlet temps would quickly climb to 30-40 degrees above ambient.

A half an hour blast through some twisty roads when your pushing over a GENUINE 200kw's ATW's and I'd be horrified to think how hot it would get.

Hot air into the engine is NOT good for performance.

When I switched to a FMIC my inlet temps were only 3 degrees above ambient and when I would give it stick the inlet temps would climb alot slower AND more importantly, it would cool back down a hell of alot quicker.

So pulling a happy number on a dyno if far from a good indicator that a WAIC is a good thing for 200+kw ATW's cars.

As for butchering you front bar - dosen't have to happen.

I only had to remove the bottom black fin from the front of my RS bar to get my FMIC core to fit...that's all!

The trick is to get a 600x270x76 core, not a 300 - makes life alot easier.

[G-unit]

didnt LNEMUP have a f-mount on his rs that didnt need 2 be messd up at the front?

[Guest]

id ditch the waic setup because

1:it is unnecessairly complex

2:it adds excess weight

3:you need amps to run the pump, more if you run it high full time

theres alot of "theories" going on here, some i agree with... like waters ability to transfer more than 4 times itself in heat, way more than air. It also has superior throttle response, because the runner is shorter. Same with a top mount air to air. Whoever said a front mount has less lag, is talking shit.

But.... as markmcrs said, NEARLY ALL the players with DECENT/BIG HP cars run front mounts. Becase they counteract the top 3 on my list up there. They also do a good job.

I recently spent some time with a friends car, new built STI EJ257 motor, vf35@16-18 psi, 550;s, microtech, etc etc. it tapped out at a super safe 195 at wheels, but with mad torque. No one is going to bother tuning this car any further until the intercooling is upgraded, because the WAIC CANNOT flow enough air to be effective anymore..... the TINY core is restricting flow. Id bet if we slapped a good FMIC on there today it would pass 200@ wheels.... and then more with tuning....

So really you need to

1:stop thinking you are building a prodrive rally car, get real and get a decent FMIC.

2: do your dyno runs again - 242 @wheels? try a different gear mate. or is that HP lol

3: stop resurrecting an argument thats been put to bed countless times

4: or get an aftermarket WAIC... the chamber ones rock as well. You may notice they are quite different from RS standard ones though.....

[Guest]

"That is blindly obvious though, because there is a thing called physics - something that no one has yet been able to work outside of.

A vf 23 @ 16 psi will produce a certain amount of CFM of airflow and it dosen't matter if the EJ 20 was built by GOD himself and kissed by angels, it ain't going to get within a bulls roar of even 200kw's ATW's."

Just improve VE - its simple physics