Ported factory headers and upgraded cross/uppipe

[Koom]

 Stoffa']

Koom how many years have you been studying this stuff? and is it part of some mechanical engineering degree? or did I just miss it from bailing out of school after 6th form? haha

Was exposed to all this stuff from first principles at Canterbury Uni while getting my Mechanical Engineering Degree a few years ago now. Had the Laws of Thermodynamics drummed into us by a guy that lived and breathed the stuff. This stuff is about 200 level. So there's another two years worth of drawing free body diagrams and P-V Diagrams left

[quote name='madmike said:

It is impossible to lose temp by JUST passing through a pressure drop mechanism.

How does a refrigeration system work then?

Best you go back and restudy thermo and fluid dynamics.

I mentioned this stuff earlier;

This is the compressor side of things.

Adiabatic heating occurs when the pressure of a gas is increased from work done on it by its surroundings, e.g. a piston. Diesel engines rely on adiabatic heating during their compression stroke to elevate the temperature sufficiently to ignite the fuel.

And conversely, the turbine side of things;

Adiabatic cooling occurs when the pressure of a substance is decreased as it does work on its surroundings.

(And adiabatic process is one where there is no significant heat transfer between the working fluid and it's surroundings. So while our turbo's won't perfectly provide this, if the turbine and housing are sitting around about the same temp as the working fluid, then there's bugger all heat transfer between the two, so the cooling of the working fluid (exhaust gases) is due to adiabatic cooling as it has expanded through the turbine.

[D-Style]

I think this is soopersubaru 3rd strike. What he's stating doesn't even make sense for gas/steam turbines or even sterling engines. Hydro turbines don't have any heat in them, yet flow/pressure of water spins them.

What ever drugs you be smoking, please share it around.

[soopersubaru]

 madmike said:

It is impossible to lose temp by JUST passing through a pressure drop mechanism.

How does a refrigeration system work then?

Best you go back and restudy thermo and fluid dynamics.

Fridge.... Irrelevant! Latent heat of vaporisation /Change of state, As in liquid to gas!( guess you may need to study further also!)

To summarise:-

Three things are required to drive your turbo.

1/ Pressure

2/Velocity

3/Heat

Adiabatic process does not occur as there IS heat loss across the turbo. (It is Diabatic)

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

If heat energy is lost across a mechanical device and the fluid has not changed state this energy has been utilized as work or effort by the mechanical device.In this case turbocharger kinetic rotational energy.

Mr Dstyle please note,

Next time one visits a hydro powerstation one will also find that the water in the dam/entering the turbine is also higher temp than the water leaving the turbine housing too!...Why is that?...same reason!

OK!...100% drive is not from heat! (never said it was)

100% drive is also not from the velocity and pressure applied either.

For your headers/pre turbo pipes to perform extremely well.... all three of the above must be managed effectively. thereby achieving the best one can from the turbine!

[boon]

 soopersubaru said:

It is impossible to lose temp by JUST passing through a pressure drop mechanism.

For a man who craps on so much about his superdupercooler, this is quite an odd statement.

Consider, when you squash the intake air with a turbo, it gets hotter, right? No phase change, nothing like that, just standard thermodynamic equilibrium, i.e. if you squash something, it gets hotter.

Likewise, if you take pressurised air and release it, hence un-squashing it, by the same token of equilibrium, it becomes cooler. All you have done is lowered the pressure.

[soopersubaru]

 boon']

[quote name='soopersubaru said:

It is impossible to lose temp by JUST passing through a pressure drop mechanism.

/quote]

For a man who craps on so much about his superdupercooler, this is quite an odd statement.

Consider, when you squash the intake air with a turbo, it gets hotter, right? No phase change, nothing like that, just standard thermodynamic equilibrium, i.e. if you squash something, it gets hotter.

Likewise, if you take pressurised air and release it, hence un-squashing it, by the same token of equilibrium, it becomes cooler. All you have done is lowered the pressure.

Un squash as you say...and the energy goes where?....Usually and eventually the heat seeps to atmosphere.

This takes time...and distance down the pipework for the superheat to dissipate.

However in the case of the turbocharger . Inlet exhaust and outlet exhaust temp are significantly different.

I.E. there is a significant temp drop across the turbine blading.....because work is being done.

As i have said ..."stop the turbine and the afore mentioned temp drop decreases".....because NO work has been done.

AND don't knock what i know does work well.. soopercooler is a tried and tested design!

[Koom]

sooper, have a read of this;

http://www.cast-safety.org/pdf/3_engine_fundamentals.pdf

It might teach you why in your tests, it appears that there has been no pressure drop yet alot of temperature drop.

Also, if you want to prove your theory that heat is directly involved in driving the turbine, draw us a free body diagram showing how it transfers its energy to the turbine.

Cause again, heat doesn't drive turbines, pressure does. All heat can do if you have equal pressure and velocity on either side of a turbine is make it hot. Not allow it to provide a driving torque to the compressor wheel.

[Koom]

 soopersubaru said:

To summarise:-

Three things are required to drive your turbo.

1/ Pressure the thing that is doing the work on the turbine, not that static pressure, but the impact pressure

2/Velocity converted to impact pressure as the turbine housing diverges, gases slow down, pressure goes up

3/Heat you only have a given amount available and must be retained cause if the gas cools, its pressure drops following the gas equation, and you loose your pressure to do work on the turbine

[madmike]

Lolz...

Sooper you just don't get it....

How bout you listen to the two engineers that are trying to school you...

When you learn the rules of energy vs work, fluid dynamics and gas dynamics then You may realise where your theory is flawed..

To be honest i'm over this thread...

[soopersubaru]

Thank you for your file on gas turbine Mr Koom.

Guess i was correct after all in some respect!

Quote from your file:-

As the mass of the high velocity gas flows across the turbine blades, the gaseous

energy is converted to mechanical energy. Velocity, TEMPERATURE, and pressure of the

gas are sacrificed in order to rotate the turbine to generate shaft power. Figure 2-5

represents one stage of the turbine and the characteristics of the gases as it flows

through the stage.

Consider this:- Hi temp gas travelling through a pipe of constant diameter passes through an orifice of smaller diameter than the pipe.The gas on the downstream side will not lose temp or velocity will it?

However place a turbine in this pipe to create the pressure drop and both pressure and temp will drop velocity will remain constant.

Why?

1st scenario :- No work done (Adiabatic)

2nd scenario:- work done...Rotation achieved!(Diabatic)

Call it a truce A?.......Over it!!

[WRXONP]

One question - if there was some crazy special fuel that had very low egt - would the turbo still work properly ?

Cos he was saying the turbo needs the heat for it to operate ?

If you got a turbo - jammed a air compressor up its ass - put some cooler piping on it with a restriction at the end the pipe would have pressure in it wouldn't it ?

[soopersubaru]

 WRXONP said:

One question - if there was some crazy special fuel that had very low egt - would the turbo still work properly ?

Cos he was saying the turbo needs the heat for it to operate ?

If you got a turbo - jammed a air compressor up its ass - put some cooler piping on it with a restriction at the end the pipe would have pressure in it wouldn't it ?

Turbine USES temp. However does not require it to operate....hope that helps you out

[madmike]

 soopersubaru']

[quote name='WRXONP said:

One question - if there was some crazy special fuel that had very low egt - would the turbo still work properly ?

Cos he was saying the turbo needs the heat for it to operate ?

If you got a turbo - jammed a air compressor up its ass - put some cooler piping on it with a restriction at the end the pipe would have pressure in it wouldn't it ?

/quote]

Turbine USES temp. However does not require it to operate....hope that helps you out

Turbine DOES NOT USE TEMPERATURE......

[soopersubaru]

 madmike']

[quote name='WRXONP said:

One question - if there was some crazy special fuel that had very low egt - would the turbo still work properly ?

Cos he was saying the turbo needs the heat for it to operate ?

If you got a turbo - jammed a air compressor up its ass - put some cooler piping on it with a restriction at the end the pipe would have pressure in it wouldn't it ?

/quote]

Turbine USES temp. However does not require it to operate....hope that helps you out

Turbine DOES NOT USE TEMPERATURE......

From mr Kooms file:-

Oh yes it does! Quote from your file:-

As the mass of the high velocity gas flows across the turbine blades, the gaseous

energy is converted to mechanical energy. Velocity, TEMPERATURE, and pressure of the

gas are sacrificed in order to rotate the turbine to generate shaft power. Figure 2-5

represents one stage of the turbine and the characteristics of the gases as it flows

through the stage.

[Stoffa]

ok can you all agree to disagree, its like a family christmas in here!!

[Koom]

Sooper, how is it that everyone else seems to realise that heat cannot do work on the turbine but you can't see that? All heat will do is make the turbine hot. But seeing as the process happens that quickly, it barely gets the chance to do that either (once everything is up to working temperature). So the temperature drop has to be due to the expansion of the working fluid! (because the pressure drop is what drives the turbine!!)

LEARN ABOUT FREEBODY DIAGRAMS AND WHAT FORCES MAKE A TURBINE ROTATE!!

The turbine is not driven by convection or conduction or radiation which is how heat energy is transferred so something else must be doing the work on the turbine.

Also, if you are going to quote something that you don't understand the full details of (and claim it as a win), can you at least try to put a bit of research into it first?

Of course TEMPERATURE, velocity and pressure are sacrificed in order to generate shaft power in the turbine. Because of the ideal gas laws, these are all tied in together so changing one has a direct effect on the others.The only one of the three that can provide a driving force on a turbine is pressure. You need to go back to one of Newton's? equations of F=p.A

Because the turbine has a fixed area and if you apply a pressure over that area, you get a force. Because that force is at a radius from the shaft, you get a torque. This is what gives the turbine the power to run the compressor on the other end of the shaft.

[Koom]

 Stoffa said:

ok can you all agree to disagree, its like a family christmas in here!!

Not until I see a freebody diagram showing heat imparting energy on the turbine blades in the form of some magical force that makes it rotate

Until then, I'll just listen to Newton and Bernoulli who will tell how temperature and velocity are converted to a pressure energy to drive the turbine.