Joker

Subaru's Flat 12 3.5L F1 Engine

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192erc01zvzndjpg.jpg

 

all I ever see is "oh it was a flop" / a failed F1 prototype (Here's some Wiki links & references)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_1235

 

BUT Did you know it was in the Prototype Koenigsegg AND went into a production Supercar called the Jiotto Caspita

 

http://koenigsegg.com/ama1-with-cvk-early-years-and-process/

 

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I met a guy who knew Carlo Chiti via a chain of friends. Chiti ran an engine company called Motori Moderni. They were in a bit of trouble but they used to do Formula 1 engines for Minardi. They had this boxer-12 engine, made in cooperation with Subaru, that had hardly ever raced. They had trouble with the weight and getting the diffusers to work with the layout of the F1 car once the engine was in.

Chiti12

The 12 cylinder engine wasn’t successful in Formula 1 but Motori Moderni had great success building other engines for Alfa Romeo to use in DTM racing. They had proven their worth, so they were worth talking to.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Chiti

 

http://koenigsegg.com/ama1-with-cvk-part-3-racing-and-technology/

 

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Francis-David Crete
Is it true that some Koenigsegg engine blocks are made by Ford Racing?

CvK: OK, the Ford connection. I’ve had this question a few times over the years.

In the beginning, we were going to use an engine from Audi, but Volkswagen wouldn’t let us tune it. Then we were going to use a flat-12 engine from Carlo Chiti (Motori Moderni) but he passed away and the company went bankrupt. We were a brand new company and for the third time in a very short period, we found ourselves looking for an engine supplier (see part 2 for the Audi and Chiti stories).

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/koenigsegg-cc-v-8-the-swedish-super-egg-road-test-a-supercar-in-the-making-page-2

 

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Some of those were back doors. Saab engineers quietly donated their expertise in engine management, helping to develop a Trionic system for the flat-12 motor Koenigsegg is working on. Volvo took shares of the company in exchange for wind-tunnel and test-track time, kicked in expertise in many areas, and greased the wheels with Sweden's suppliers.

 

 

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The Jiotto Caspita is a prototype mid-engine sports car designed and manufactured by Dome for a company named Jiotto in 1988. The car was billed as the F1 on the Road. The original design of the car was done by Kunihisa Ito, who was the vice-president and chief designer of Jiotto Design Incorporated.

 

1024px-JIOTTO_CASPITA.JPG

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Jiotto-Caspita/106230496075672

 

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The first car was powered by a Motori Moderni flat-12, a detuned Formula One engine, and then in 1990 was stripped and then rebuilt with a Judd V10. Both engines were longitudinally mounted, and powered through a 6 speed gearbox built by Weismann. The car first made its debut at the Tokyo Motor Show in the same year, but the project would die out in 1993 due to the global recession which meant lack of demands for supercars. With the Judd engine, the Caspita is capable of 577 horsepower (430 kW) at 10,750 rpm and 283 ft·lbf (284 N·m) of torque at 10,500 rpm. This, along with a curb weight of 2734 lb (1240 kg), gives the Caspita a 0-60 mph acceleration time of approximately 4.7 seconds and a top speed of 199 miles per hour (320 km/h).

 

so yea not such a 'Failed engine' after all eh?

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this whole Jalopnik post felt like I had written (copy pasted) it myself hah!

 

ClubSub org nz shared Jalopnik's post.
3 hrs · -pz5JhcNQ9P.png

Not the worst engine in the world after all eh? ~ joker 1f0cf.png🃏

 

The incredible engine that never was.

safe_image.php?d=AQCB3Tl-zMM8kYgH&w=450&
My obsession with Subaru’s failed F1 engine, a flat-12, has gone on for years, and I had often heard that the motor nearly went on to power…
JALOPNIK.COM|BY RAPHAEL ORLOVE

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a guy commented on that post has a few spare Flat 12 engines in Aussie & in the process of mid mounted one in a SVX with a vid I believe of around Bathurst (this is his 'normal SVX)

 

 

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not sure if I added this article from Jalopnik for more reference

 

Quote


 

safe_image.php?d=AQDgfXMtxOlzOChH&w=476&
My obsession with Subaru’s failed F1 engine, a flat-12, has gone on for years, and I had often heard that the motor nearly went on to power Koenigsegg’s first…
jalopnik.com
 


 

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Nice link to the page :D

 

I think the issue with this engine was it was never able to be truly developed.

Id be happy that engine 

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On 21/08/2017 at 11:54 AM, SpeedySub said:

Nice link to the page :D

 

I think the issue with this engine was it was never able to be truly developed.

Id be happy that engine 

I don’t mean to revive an old thread but I think the idea is good but in reality it’s a terrible design, fairly general maintenance would require removal of the engine compared to working on the likes of a straight or V mounted engine. It’s bad enough trying to squeeze my arms down the side of the flat 4 to change spark plugs, I’d hate to see a mechanics bill to replace seals 😬 

 

did anyone also notice the low Tq figure on the flat 12? Incredibly low and way up top in the rev range. I think the Subaru motor would be better suited for boost and I think a more exciting version would be a flat 6 or highly tuned flat 4 to keep weight down over the front of the car. Straight cut gears sound great in that video ^ 🤤

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revive away! they do mention the weight was one of the actual problems & also 'low power' compared to the other F1 teams at the time

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there's another wiki page dedicated to it too

 

Quote

The Subaru 1235 engines, however, were not only used in Formula One. They were also used in the World Sportscar Championship by Alba, in their Group C AR20 car, during the 1990 season.[8] Just like in Formula One, the engine proved to be extremely unsuccessful, and the AR20 Subaru only qualified for one race.[9] On its début at the 1990 480 km of Suzuka, for example, the AR20, driven by Gianfranco Brancatelli and Marco Brand was nearly eight seconds slower in qualifying than any other car, and nearly half a minute slower than the fastest qualifier.[10] The one race it did qualify for, the 1990 480 km of Spa, saw the AR20 unable to make the start due to engine failure.[11] This would also prove to be the AR20's last race with the Subaru engine,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_1235

 

probably the first time I;ve actually read it & learned it was "only" 3.5L : must be tiny pistons!

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& alittle bit more on the Jiotto

 

https://jalopnik.com/the-jiotto-caspita-was-one-of-the-greatest-supercars-th-1796452206

 

Quote

In any case, Dome’s Jiotto Caspita was going to get a 450 horsepower, 10,000 RPM flat-12 engine that Subaru briefly used to support an ill-fated F1 program. When it became clear that engine was a dud, Dome abandoned the engine. It was just in time for the global demand for supercars to fall out, along with the Japanese economy in general. The bubble burst, and the Jiotto Caspita never quite made it. Honestly, it could have been worse; Dome and Jiotto could have taken a ton of orders for the car and then been held to them despite it not making any financial sense for the company to make and sell such a high-priced car. That’s what happened to Porsche with the 959 and Jaguar with the XJ220.

 

fnx5cewz12jcwd3pkmeg.jpg

 

 

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4 hours ago, Omsin said:

I don’t mean to revive an old thread but I think the idea is good but in reality it’s a terrible design, fairly general maintenance would require removal of the engine compared to working on the likes of a straight or V mounted engine. It’s bad enough trying to squeeze my arms down the side of the flat 4 to change spark plugs, I’d hate to see a mechanics bill to replace seals 😬 

 

did anyone also notice the low Tq figure on the flat 12? Incredibly low and way up top in the rev range. I think the Subaru motor would be better suited for boost and I think a more exciting version would be a flat 6 or highly tuned flat 4 to keep weight down over the front of the car. Straight cut gears sound great in that video ^ 🤤

 

in a ferrari testrossa with flat 12, the drivetrain is on a subframe designed to make engine removal relatively easy for maintenance.

 

using a flat 12 does present compromises in packaging , suspension design and underbody aero.


 

 

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They shouldve made the SVX with a turbo manual option. Kinda like an NSX-R, or who knows SVX RA / GT-B

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Posted (edited)

why do I want one of those to put in one of these?

 

AMV4591_1024x1024.jpg

 

Not that a H12 would fit, but you can get EJ20 tube frame replicas

10/90 weight balance would need wheelie bars 

now I want one even more, wheelie bas on a daily Mmm

Edited by Gripless
lost sanity
  • Haha 1

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