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EZ30 Not running very well


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That timing is down eh, either BtSSM is reading IAM wrong or there's a fair bit of real or perceived knock which explains the lack of drive-ability.  I see you've already checked for loose parts that could make a metallic ringing including the cat shields.  Any corrosion or cracks on the knock sensors themselves? Does you car have an EGR valve under the intake passenger side ? Much residue/clag around the injectors (would have to remove the black fuel rail protectors ) ?  Also the serpentine belt tensioner and idle pulley are a weak point on our engines and can chatter before failing.

 

My intake had a similar split that filled well after sanding with JB Plasti Weld (Repco) and an opp' to check throttle body is clean.  Catalogue codes show Subaru made a later revision to the intake but these are expensive. 

 

IMG_3371.thumb.JPEG.6424a5d8da3009dc0551dbd49da99505.JPEG

 

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Hopefully this should be enough to start RR without error messages.  If you don't see the c:\Program FIles (x86)\RomRaider\ folder no worries just use c:\Program Files\RomRaider\.  You'll need to down

I had the same issues trying to view LTV in Romraider from my 3.0r. Just keep using btssm like you've done in the past or use this utility.    The ECU is constantly learning, but can only le

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I think the  BtSsm is reading the IAM correctly, as there is always a long list of knock events on the tab next to the "LV" at the top right of the screen. I might get some of those off and post up so you can see. It doesn't look right to me, as they are quite often as low revs or low load yet it reckons it is pinging it's head off. As far as I can tell and hear, there are not rattles of loose things, either at idle with the bonnet up, or driving along with the window down trying to hear anything. So I really don't know.

 

@ajayel do you know if the 3.6 litre motors have these problems?

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10 hours ago, BMCracer said:

 

@ajayel do you know if the 3.6 litre motors have these problems?

The 3.6 has a lower compression ratio (10.5) so can use regular fuel and would prolly ping less but not had any hands on time with the EZ36.

 

If you can get btssm to log another CSV that would be interesting. So similar to your previous logs posted maybe drop the OCV, OSV stuff and add in Feedback Knock correction and Fine Knock correction.  The computer only applies knock correction above certain thresholds of load & rpm because some is just noise but these parameters tell us when its detected and learnt.

 

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I couldn't find Feedback Knock Correction or Fine Knock Correction on the BtSsm. Is the FKC value Feedback Knock COrrection? What is FLKC? Anyway, does this below tell you anything?

 

KNOCK DETECTED at 2020-06-15 02:56:00 pm
Coolant (degC): 96
Injector PW (ms): 4.9
Load (g/rev): 0.68
MAF (g/s): 15.34
Misfire cyl 1: 0
Misfire cyl 2: 0
Misfire cyl 3: 0
Misfire cyl 4: 0
Misfire cyl 5: 0
Misfire cyl 6: 0
Oil (degC): 92
RPM: 1344
Speed (kmh): 60.0
Throttle plate (%): 10.2
Timing (deg): 18.5
VVT int L (deg): 20
VVT int R (deg): 20
IAM: 0.344
FKC (deg): -0.70
FLKC (deg): -0.09


KNOCK DETECTED at 2020-06-15 02:55:55 pm
Coolant (degC): 95
Injector PW (ms): 5.4
Load (g/rev): 0.72
MAF (g/s): 16.06
Misfire cyl 1: 0
Misfire cyl 2: 0
Misfire cyl 3: 0
Misfire cyl 4: 0
Misfire cyl 5: 0
Misfire cyl 6: 0
Oil (degC): 92
RPM: 1343
Speed (kmh): 57.0
Throttle plate (%): 10.6
Timing (deg): 16.0
VVT int L (deg): 20
VVT int R (deg): 20
IAM: 0.344
FKC (deg): -0.70
FLKC (deg): -0.09


KNOCK DETECTED at 2020-06-15 02:55:48 pm
Coolant (degC): 95
Injector PW (ms): 5.4
Load (g/rev): 0.74
MAF (g/s): 15.27
Misfire cyl 1: 0
Misfire cyl 2: 0
Misfire cyl 3: 0
Misfire cyl 4: 0
Misfire cyl 5: 0
Misfire cyl 6: 0
Oil (degC): 92
RPM: 1238
Speed (kmh): 56.0
Throttle plate (%): 10.2
Timing (deg): 17.0
VVT int L (deg): 20
VVT int R (deg): 20
IAM: 0.344
FKC (deg): -0.70
FLKC (deg): -0.09


KNOCK DETECTED at 2020-06-15 02:55:02 pm
Coolant (degC): 97
Injector PW (ms): 5.1
Load (g/rev): 0.71
MAF (g/s): 14.13
Misfire cyl 1: 0
Misfire cyl 2: 0
Misfire cyl 3: 0
Misfire cyl 4: 0
Misfire cyl 5: 0
Misfire cyl 6: 0
Oil (degC): 93
RPM: 1187
Speed (kmh): 52.0
Throttle plate (%): 10.2
Timing (deg): 16.5
VVT int L (deg): 0
VVT int R (deg): 0
IAM: 0.344
FKC (deg): -0.70
FLKC (deg): -0.09


KNOCK DETECTED at 2020-06-15 02:54:54 pm
Coolant (degC): 97
Injector PW (ms): 5.4
Load (g/rev): 0.73
MAF (g/s): 14.96
Misfire cyl 1: 0
Misfire cyl 2: 0
Misfire cyl 3: 0
Misfire cyl 4: 0
Misfire cyl 5: 0
Misfire cyl 6: 0
Oil (degC): 93
RPM: 1227
Speed (kmh): 55.0
Throttle plate (%): 10.2
Timing (deg): 16.0
VVT int L (deg): 0
VVT int R (deg): 0
IAM: 0.344
FKC (deg): -0.70
FLKC (deg): -0.09


KNOCK DETECTED at 2020-06-15 02:54:50 pm
Coolant (degC): 96
Injector PW (ms): 5.1
Load (g/rev): 0.71
MAF (g/s): 14.19
Misfire cyl 1: 0
Misfire cyl 2: 0
Misfire cyl 3: 0
Misfire cyl 4: 0
Misfire cyl 5: 0
Misfire cyl 6: 0
Oil (degC): 93
RPM: 1207
Speed (kmh): 54.0
Throttle plate (%): 9.8
Timing (deg): 17.0
VVT int L (deg): 0
VVT int R (deg): 0
IAM: 0.344
FKC (deg): -0.70
FLKC (deg): -0.09


KNOCK DETECTED at 2020-06-15 02:51:08 pm
Coolant (degC): 95
Injector PW (ms): 4.9
Load (g/rev): 0.71
MAF (g/s): 15.17
Misfire cyl 1: 0
Misfire cyl 2: 0
Misfire cyl 3: 0
Misfire cyl 4: 0
Misfire cyl 5: 0
Misfire cyl 6: 0
Oil (degC): 91
RPM: 1289
Speed (kmh): 58.0
Throttle plate (%): 10.2
Timing (deg): 19.5
VVT int L (deg): 19
VVT int R (deg): 20
IAM: 0.344
FKC (deg): -0.70
FLKC (deg): 0.34


KNOCK DETECTED at 2020-06-15 02:51:03 pm
Coolant (degC): 95
Injector PW (ms): 5.6
Load (g/rev): 0.82
MAF (g/s): 17.90
Misfire cyl 1: 0
Misfire cyl 2: 0
Misfire cyl 3: 0
Misfire cyl 4: 0
Misfire cyl 5: 0
Misfire cyl 6: 0
Oil (degC): 91
RPM: 1314
Speed (kmh): 59.0
Throttle plate (%): 11.4
Timing (deg): 15.5
VVT int L (deg): 20
VVT int R (deg): 20
IAM: 0.344
FKC (deg): -0.70
FLKC (deg): 0.34
 

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Feedback Knock Correction = FBKC (aka FKC) changes

Fine Learning Knock Correction = FLKC changes

Rough Correction = IAM changes

 

If FBKC happens often it is stored to FLKC. To calc total timing base timing, (KCA*IAM), FBKC and FLKC are combined. The knock control strategy doc posted previously explains this properly but each of the three correction modes are applied within preset load/rpm ranges.

 

A log file after the intake crack is fixed from normal driving, cruise and harder acceleration (joining the highway) might show us more around the conditions at accel/cruise/decel (load, rpm, pedal,throttle sensors) and airflow (VVT,MAF,AF,O2 sensors). The logs show how the params are increasing or decreasing rather than the freeze frame btssm is triggered to collect. 

 

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4 hours ago, BMCracer said:

Oh ok so I should log it with RomRaider like before when we did the AVCS solenoid? I will try to do that on the weekend. Won't have the intake crack fixed by them though.

Might be worth a Romraider test run but prolly don't collect a heap of data until the intake is sealed as that's a vac leak.  Please inc. both air fuel ratio sensors, both oxygen sensors and the others mentioned above.

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Just one more ;

  • fbkc (feedback knock correction)

 

I've thought of others that may help, not all available on all vehicles;

  • gear (could be calculated gear)
  • fuel tank pressure (if available)
  • cpc (canister purge)
  • egr steps (exhaust gas re circulation)

 

You don't need these;

  • Engine Load (Relative) (%)
  • Mass Airflow Sensor Voltage (V)
  • Main Accelerator Sensor (V)
  • Sub Throttle Sensor (V)    
  • Sub Accelerator Sensor (V)
  • Main Throttle Sensor (V)
     
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1 hour ago, ajayel said:

Just one more ;

  • fbkc (feedback knock correction)

 

I've thought of others that may help, not all available on all vehicles;

  • gear (could be calculated gear)
  • fuel tank pressure (if available)
  • cpc (canister purge)
  • egr steps (exhaust gas re circulation)

 

You don't need these;

  • Engine Load (Relative) (%)
  • Mass Airflow Sensor Voltage (V)
  • Main Accelerator Sensor (V)
  • Sub Throttle Sensor (V)    
  • Sub Accelerator Sensor (V)
  • Main Throttle Sensor (V)
     

I was looking for the FBKC but couldn't see it, maybe I need to look harder.

 

I'll try to do another run tonight and get rid of the parameters not needed and try to find the other ones you have suggested.

 

Thanks for your continuing help and advice 

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OK so I went out tonight after tea and logged it again, and added and deleted the parameters accordingly. There is no parameters for FBKC, gear ( my car is 5 speed auto ), fuel tank pressure, or EGR steps. I found and added the CPC, and added 2 other ones I thought may be useful ( the last 2 in columns Y and Z )?

 

I cruised along the surburban roads to the motorway, the first on ramp was wasted because of sleepyhead in front, so I did 3 more on-ramps and gave it a good rev out to 6000rpm ( been a very long time since it's been anywhere near that high!! ), then off the motorway and cruise back home. So hopefully there is some good data there which can tell us something.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lXS34SoL9a_1-nQw9aQnqMP-QGeJEQYK/view?usp=sharing

 

The thing I've noticed when I had the Nexus in the car and could see the IAM live, when it's sitting at whatever number, any time I drove the car any harder than absolute grandma, even if I drive the car just totally normally ( not giving it any beans but not taking all day either ), the IAM always took a massive dive instantly. As you can see on tonight's log, the IAM is at 0.000. What happens if it wants to take even more timing out? Can it go negative? Or does it just display 0.000 and then keep taking timing out anyway if it wants to?

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IAM 0.0 is the ECU needing more data to make up it's mind but somethings definitely wrong here, as you know!  FLKC protects the engine up to 7 or 8 degrees which did get touched on albeit spiked very briefly.  Could be so many things but airflow is interesting.  After you let off the pedal the  throttle closes appropriately but it's taking three or four seconds for the mass airflow reading to reduce.

 

- is that intake chamber crack fixed ?  

- the pipe between the the air filter and intake chamber has a tab that must line up on the chamber kinda underneath and towards the driver 

- the pipe on the air filter box & where the chamber hooks onto the throttle body has rubber ends which can get kinked or tear causing leaks ?

- is the MAF sensor dirty, loose or wiring damaged ?

- is the MAP sensor (front of intake manifold) loose and have it's small rubber hoses to the filter connected  (should be able to blow air gently thru filter & hoses)

- are the 2 knock sensors (under the intake manifold, blue connectors) loose or corroded, cabling ok ?

- any loose debris rattling around under the intake manifold ?

- any gunk around the fuel injector seals ?

- the orange gaskets under each side of the manifold and on the throttle body have tabs do they look perished ?

- is the throttle body clean ? (added with edit)

 

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  • 1 month later...

So I finally found the time ( and a spare car to use ) last night so I pulled the air chamber off the car and put some Araldite in the crevice where the crack is. Should be able to put it back on the car tonight.

 

The pipe that goes between the air filter and the chamber, the locating tab wasn't really lined up the best so I'll make sure that is right when I put it back together.

 

Everything else looks ok in terms of nothing seems loose or wiring damaged etc. I haven't cleaned the throttle body, and not sure what condition it's in, might have a look tonight before I put the intake chamber back on.

Edited by BMCracer
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18 minutes ago, BMCracer said:

Has anyone removed the throttle body ( on an H6 engine ) to clean it properly, rather than just doing what you can with it on the car?

 

Yeah just 4 bolts but you'll lose a little coolant disconnecting those lines so may need to bleed air out again and it's recommended to use a new TB gasket.  You can also hold the throttle open for cleaning with engine off/ignition on & a brick on the accelerator.

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  • 4 months later...

So I finally got a new unit in the dash cubby to replace the Nexus 7, so I can keep an eye on things once again with the BtSsm. IAM still around 0.LOW.

 

I've been wondering for a long time if it's simply because they run 100 octane in Japan and the best we can get is 98? When I got the car I was running 95 in it, then when I changed to 98 it didn't make any difference to the IAM. The IAM has always been low, and any time I gave it a bit of reasonable accelerator, or had a semi-loaded trailer on the back, the IAM would instantly go down to 0.000, before recovering (!) back up to 0.2ish several days later.

 

Last week I bought a bottle of Octane booster ( NF race octane booster ), which has been independently tested to give up tp 6 Ron increase. I put in half the 375ml bottle which should equate to 3 Ron increase which would bring the 98 up to 101. Went down to the petrol station ( 7 Eleven which sells Mobil petrol ), tipped in half the bottle, and filled up with 98. The next morning once the new juice had got through to the engine, the IAM instantly went up, right up to 1.0, before settling at 0.625, where it stayed for the rest of the week until I put my trailer on the back, and then the IAM went down to 0.375, still better than pre-octane booster. The thing that really convinced me though, is that the several times I'l given it a bit of reasonable accelerator which previously would see the IAM instantly plummet to 0.000, it has not moved, stayed exactly where it was.

 

I filled up again last night, whiteout adding more octane booster, and we'll see what happens,. The octane booster at $45 a bottle is too expensive to use all the time, but I think I'll start using it when I know I'm going to be pulling my trailer or some other hard work for the car.

 

So that's my unscientific research to date, still more testing to do to see what I can get out of it.

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13 minutes ago, BMCracer said:

So I finally got a new unit in the dash cubby to replace the Nexus 7, so I can keep an eye on things once again with the BtSsm. IAM still around 0.LOW.

 

I've been wondering for a long time if it's simply because they run 100 octane in Japan and the best we can get is 98? When I got the car I was running 95 in it, then when I changed to 98 it didn't make any difference to the IAM. The IAM has always been low, and any time I gave it a bit of reasonable accelerator, or had a semi-loaded trailer on the back, the IAM would instantly go down to 0.000, before recovering (!) back up to 0.2ish several days later.

 

Last week I bought a bottle of Octane booster ( NF race octane booster ), which has been independently tested to give up tp 6 Ron increase. I put in half the 375ml bottle which should equate to 3 Ron increase which would bring the 98 up to 101. Went down to the petrol station ( 7 Eleven which sells Mobil petrol ), tipped in half the bottle, and filled up with 98. The next morning once the new juice had got through to the engine, the IAM instantly went up, right up to 1.0, before settling at 0.625, where it stayed for the rest of the week until I put my trailer on the back, and then the IAM went down to 0.375, still better than pre-octane booster. The thing that really convinced me though, is that the several times I'l given it a bit of reasonable accelerator which previously would see the IAM instantly plummet to 0.000, it has not moved, stayed exactly where it was.

 

I filled up again last night, whiteout adding more octane booster, and we'll see what happens,. The octane booster at $45 a bottle is too expensive to use all the time, but I think I'll start using it when I know I'm going to be pulling my trailer or some other hard work for the car.

 

So that's my unscientific research to date, still more testing to do to see what I can get out of it.

 

I'm curious if you could get your hands on some NPD 100 if that would have the same affect, I'm assuming you're north island though? :(

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1 hour ago, Technikhaus said:

 

I'm curious if you could get your hands on some NPD 100 if that would have the same affect, I'm assuming you're north island though? :(

Was in Auckland, in Western Australia now ( same car, took it with me to Oz ) .... but wow 100 at the pump would be great, and yes interesting to see the affect. Don't think I can get 100 over here, but surely someone in NZ can run 100 in their 3.0 for a bit and see if it makes a difference? I know I'm not the only one with this problem in a 3.0

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15 hours ago, BMCracer said:

Was in Auckland, in Western Australia now ( same car, took it with me to Oz ) .... but wow 100 at the pump would be great, and yes interesting to see the affect. Don't think I can get 100 over here, but surely someone in NZ can run 100 in their 3.0 for a bit and see if it makes a difference? I know I'm not the only one with this problem in a 3.0

Ahh, wasn't sure if you were previously there, and now here, or the other way haha. 
Yeah NPD do 100 now at many stations in the south island, so would be quite interesting to see!

Sadly we sold our 3.0 a few years back so can't test it sorry!

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On 23/12/2020 at 4:28 PM, BMCracer said:

Was in Auckland, in Western Australia now ( same car, took it with me to Oz ) .... but wow 100 at the pump would be great, and yes interesting to see the affect. Don't think I can get 100 over here, but surely someone in NZ can run 100 in their 3.0 for a bit and see if it makes a difference? I know I'm not the only one with this problem in a 3.0


I have a 6MT 3.0 and run NPD 100
Working through various hesitations and following this thread with interest haha

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  • 1 month later...

I personally don't have the equipment to quote logs and prove improvements with data, however; from reading this thread I believe I've rectified a fair few niggles I've found.
Mainly hesitations when accelerating, not smoothly pulling through the powerband and minor missfires. Fuel has exclusively been NPD 100+ or BP98 where 100 s unavailable

Firstly, I sealed the cracked intake box the day I picked up the car. With regular maintenance I've been cleaning the throttle plate for carbon build up.
After your suggestion, I checked all header heat shields for security an found a couple brackets loose and vibrating. New bolts and/or nuts secured those. Small improvement to engine running seemingly felt.

More recently I replaced all spark plugs with NGK ILFR6B plugs. When doing this I came across 2 further issues. Removing the headers to jack up each side of the engine revealed a loose header nut causing an exhaust leak, couldn't hear it at all though. Cleaned up all surfaces and seems to be okay
Secondly, someone previously has broken some of the locking tabs off the coil wiring plugs. Their solution was to fill the surrounding area of the plug with RTV, now rendering the plug useless. This also seems to be causing the plug to not be seated 100% of the way home on the coil. Whether this is causing unreliable coil performance I don't know...

After fixing the exhaust leak, new plugs and an ECU reset the engine performance feels better than ever. Again I don't have the data to prove it though it certainly pulls harder and smoother, more consistently as well

Will add photos when I can figure out updated sharing

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