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Niran

Killer B vs RCM vs PBMS baffled sump

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Hey team.

 

Keen for a robust discussion on the topic of baffled sumps. The way I see it, the listed baffled sumps are the go to options. I haven't seen any back to back testing on each, but people seem to froth over Killer B sumps. Had an engine builder tell me recently that they actually are pretty average and really are just a lot of hype. Being cast as well, the chances of catastrophic failure if there is an impact are high. But like with everything, everyone has a different opinion! Here are the three sumps for your reading pleasure:

 

The Killer B combo:

https://www.killerbmotorsport.net/3-piece-pan-pickup-baffle.html.html

 

The RCM combo:

https://rogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk/store/product/32-rcm-group-n-baffled-oil-sump-pan

https://rogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk/store/product/21-rcm-oil-sump-pan-baffle-plate

 

PBMS:

https://www.possumbournemotorsport.com/pbms-baffled-sump/

 

PBMS also have a stage two option which i need to learn more about. 

 

At the surface the RCM one looks to have the most baffling of the lot. But the killer b one is deeper (lower centre of gravity) and has a larger capacity. 

 

What do you guys reckon?

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

But everything would fail with a high impact.

I don't think there is much to discuss, all of these have been successful in high horsepower applications.

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I really like the look of the RCM ones, Killer B ones seem to be the go in the States, might be just because of cost and availability of them but look cheap to me. The PBMS ones have been used here lots so can find first hand info on them.

I would find more info on the RCM ones as they look such good quality, especially compared to the Killer B one.

http://www.speedhunters.com/2017/03/roger-clark-motorsport/

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I see your 3.5 and raise you 2...

 

Killer b one baffle looks cheaply baffled and could be the capacity is what saves it from sloshing away from the pick up. That American cast sump stuff isn’t as bad as it seems but yes it does crack if something big hits it. Not like the average road stone though. 
 

RCM looks like the Cosworth ones and likely the little rubber flaps are cosworth parts.  
https://www.rallysportdirect.com/part/oil-control-devices/cos1-20002499-cosworth-oil-control-baffle

though Cosworth has windage scraper baffles up to the crank which is seems better. 
 

I have the PBMS one and was thinking of a windage tray add-in only.
 

Custom that sandwiches between the block and PBMS sump. So a single sheet laser cut and bent up to add scraper up to the crank. 

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Nothing much to add besides don't get that RCM one as it's a UEL shaped sump so won't fit with you EL twinscroll intentions. 

Have you considered a Moroso baffled sump or an additional oil accumulator/storage tank?

Probably overkill but might help in the rare situation a baffled sump doesn't. Moroso still offers baffled steel sumps which reduces the risk of it letting go if an impact occurs.

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Pretty sure Macbuilt in Wellington build custom sumps also which I have heard good things about. Have you had a chat to Tony from Dtech? He has developed his WRX track car and would know a good way to go from experience. 

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Interesting read:

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2251397

 

Seems like killer b is the way to go?

 

At the two track days I've had so far, the problem i've had is oil pooling into the heads and overflowing out of the AOS. So the baffles in the current sump are probably insufficient and getting a more restrictive baffle plate up top won't help either as the oil won't be able to get back into the sump easily? 

 

The moroso one looks good, but based on those data logs, probably will still have issues. 

 

Dry sump systems are hella expensive man. Really for a full track car setup which this kinda is not. Would love to though! 

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Macbilt makes a very nice baffled and enlarged sump with internal gates, proven on New Zealand tracks many times over 

 

I’ve got one on the gravel express atm, there may or may not be photos of it in my WRX build thread from a few years ago 

 

highly recommend, I’ve had it for at least 6 years now 

 

May as well ask them about their breather setup they make for racecars as well 

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On 26/12/2019 at 9:56 PM, Andy_Mac said:

Nothing much to add besides don't get that RCM one as it's a UEL shaped sump so won't fit with you EL twinscroll intentions. 

Have you considered a Moroso baffled sump or an additional oil accumulator/storage tank?

Probably overkill but might help in the rare situation a baffled sump doesn't. Moroso still offers baffled steel sumps which reduces the risk of it letting go if an impact occurs.

 

RCM have EL sumps as well, I have one.

On 27/12/2019 at 5:02 PM, chulozumo said:

Macbilt makes a very nice baffled and enlarged sump with internal gates, proven on New Zealand tracks many times over 

 

I’ve got one on the gravel express atm, there may or may not be photos of it in my WRX build thread from a few years ago 

 

highly recommend, I’ve had it for at least 6 years now 

 

May as well ask them about their breather setup they make for racecars as well 

 

Last time I was in need of a sump, they just said to get an RCM sump and be done.

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Just now, Loren said:

 

RCM have EL sumps as well, I have one.

 

True. Was just making sure he didn't make the mistake of getting that one haha

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I have seen a subaru sump on a saker that has a rotating pickup... so the oil can't get away from it.

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22 minutes ago, Loren said:

I have seen a subaru sump on a saker that has a rotating pickup... so the oil can't get away from it.

 

They have that on the BTCC Levorgs. Very cool idea for a race vehicle where it can be checked all the time. Not sure how that would last on a road/track vehicle where it would have to last x many thousand km’s without being properly checked for wear. 

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49 minutes ago, Andy_Mac said:

 

They have that on the BTCC Levorgs. Very cool idea for a race vehicle where it can be checked all the time. Not sure how that would last on a road/track vehicle where it would have to last x many thousand km’s without being properly checked for wear. 

 

Yeah, a moving part that can't be checked... but the one I saw had a fairly substantial bearing that will see very little load... will hardly move much at all... just gently sway back and forth with g-forces... and oiling shouldn't be an issue :)

Edited by Loren
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If it’s a sealed bearing not much to go wrong other then dent I the sump stopping it moving side to side. 

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Good point.

I'd just be paranoid of something getting in there and causing it to jam on one side. The bottom of the sump is ground zero for contaminants after all. 

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Seems easier to just make a wider pan if you can fit it in. Make bolting them up a pain but it can’t slosh into the heads. 
some wide v8 pans are like that super short bolts and open end spanner take ages to good up but big volume increases and v bottom so oil awaits around pickup. 
 

Must be a good custom pan though. This is NZ so we do DIY more than buy since not the volume of sales to support off the shelf designer parts. 

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