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Hey guys,

 

Got my STI tuned today. It's basically stock except for a PBMS downpipe. It was 197,0 awkw @ 5438 rpm before and 217,6 awkw @ 5411 rpm after, which I'm quite happy with, it's definitely smoother and pulls harder throughout the rev-range. 

 

The one thing I'm surprised how quickly the torque on these things fall off after the peak, the power actually drops around 3500rpm due to this. It's smoothened out with the tune, but still there (ignore speedcut in the before dyno pull).

 

What sort of numbers do these things make typically? I saw one that got tuned by PBMS (w/ intake and catback) that made 225 awkw... if that's typical I'm pretty happy only being 7,4 kw down with an extra few k in my pocket.

 

I guess the only logical next move (if I decide I need more ponies) is new turbo, such that it can breathe up top. Has anyone tried the GTX3071R bolt-on which PBMS has, or are there better alternatives? The stock injectors are already running pretty high, so I guess those would need to go along with the fuel pump. What is a realistic figure with the stock bottom end? 250 awkw? 300 awkw? What other supporting mods would need to be done.

 

All my previous cars have been N/As which like to rev SW20 MR2, Accord Euro R, Golf R32  so it's quite strange to now have a car which is running out of breathe with 2000 rpm still to go.

dyno.jpg

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The engine isn’t running out of puff. The turbo is operating outside its efficiency point so builds up more heat so you either need a bigger turbo or inter cooler. 
if you have a plot with boost on it you’ll see got up to 21ps at 4K rpm then it tails off to 15psi at high rpm as the turbo is small.
 

if you set the max boost to 15 psi it’d make more power almost at the redline as it stays cooler through the rev range. But it would suck low down and feel slow as crap. I did that for fun. Lasted all of 20 minutes before I reverted it. 

 

what you want is to have the biggest amount possible under the line on the dyno plot. That’s means it accelerates fast and throws you back into the seat. 
 

215-220 kw is typical stock depends on the age of the car and fuel. 
there are 300kw stock block STI but that’s the 2L version. 
check out @Niran old topics for water meth and how much he made. Look for the pre insanity build not the 500wkw one. Same car though. 

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What dyno was that on? Some read considerably higher than others.

Mine made 225wkw/506nm but that was on the DTech dyno which reads considerably lower than the PBMS rolling road one. Mods are essentially just a decatted downpipe and an intake, everything else was done for future proofing and not to make more power now.

 

The aggressive torque drop off is pretty standard for these as they can't hold the 20+psi peak boost for long so it's a quick rise and fall. 

A stock location 3071 is a decent choice depending on end goal. You’ll make somewhere around 250+wkw depending on accompanying mods.

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All stock location "big" turbos suck. Every single person that has built a car with one has been disappointed with the end result, the end.

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5 minutes ago, boon said:

All stock location "big" turbos suck. Every single person that has built a car with one has been disappointed with the end result, the end.

 

Sure if you're expecting it to behave like the rotated version the core is based on then you’ll be disappointed but they’re probably still a better way than say a Kinugawa TD05/06 job or half the other stock location turbo’s out there.

 

Most seem to see the core model and think it’ll somehow flow as well as the real thing and then end up disappointed, haven't seen many that actually hate the way they behave in general.

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Ours (2.0L) is going in for a tune in two weeks, similar mods, but a little extra, Perrin 76mm intake, PBMS Catless downpipe, and an Invidia R400. 
It'll be tuned on 100 octane too, so will be interesting to see how it compares to yours. This will be tuned up in Christchurch at SAS. 


We had it dyno'd when it first came into the country at the end of 2018, here's the completely factory dyno sheet, with boost, you can see what @Gripless was talking about here:

stistockdyno.jpg

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Man I feel bad mine was 175wkw ‘tune’ by someone on here 185wkw reflashed to stock. Now 219 or so with down pipe. 

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Is yours a 2.5 or 2.0? 2.5L engines obviously have more displacement so will make a bit more power/torque.

 

Not having a catback exhaust and intake make a decent difference. I'd say 20-30kw.

 

Here is mine for reference:

Invidia DP and Q300 catback

3port solenoid

Cold air intake

Turbosmart IWG75 internal gate

Water meth kit

 

The blue line below is without the cat back, water meth and IWG internal gate

 

They did a run for me with all the mods above and without the meth going - it made 237kw

 

Red line is with all above mods and meth going - 254kw. 

 

MTiKZFO.jpg

 

 

 

Who tuned your car?

 

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PBMS recommended we get a meth kit for ours to make the most benefit of the tune, we're not going to this time around, but interesting to see it made that much of a difference!

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I’ve always been kinda keen for meth on mine since e85 has never been readily available here. Hearing the horror stories of engines going boom when it fails is a bit off-putting though.
The controllers can be wired to put the ECU in limp mode but not sure if that happens fast enough to actually save anything if it fails when being pushed hard.

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if you monitoring The pressure just before nozzle then given it’s pulsing in milliseconds you may get one maybe two cylinder firing without meth before if dropped back to the non meth fuel map. 
 

sounds pretty safe if you set it up right. Needs to be intergrated to the ecu though. 

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On 16/07/2020 at 5:04 PM, Gripless said:

The engine isn’t running out of puff. The turbo is operating outside its efficiency point so builds up more heat so you either need a bigger turbo or inter cooler. 
if you have a plot with boost on it you’ll see got up to 21ps at 4K rpm then it tails off to 15psi at high rpm as the turbo is small.
 

if you set the max boost to 15 psi it’d make more power almost at the redline as it stays cooler through the rev range. But it would suck low down and feel slow as crap. I did that for fun. Lasted all of 20 minutes before I reverted it. 

 

what you want is to have the biggest amount possible under the line on the dyno plot. That’s means it accelerates fast and throws you back into the seat. 
 

215-220 kw is typical stock depends on the age of the car and fuel. 
there are 300kw stock block STI but that’s the 2L version. 
check out @Niran old topics for water meth and how much he made. Look for the pre insanity build not the 500wkw one. Same car though. 


I know all this, I'm a mechanical engineer that has also done  some tuning courses, you don't need to explain basics. I was asking about the massive torque dip at 3500rpm, is it normal.

 

Thanks for the info on stock block, my is a jdm 2.0l

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On 16/07/2020 at 5:30 PM, Andy_Mac said:

What dyno was that on? Some read considerably higher than others.

Mine made 225wkw/506nm but that was on the DTech dyno which reads considerably lower than the PBMS rolling road one. Mods are essentially just a decatted downpipe and an intake, everything else was done for future proofing and not to make more power now.

 

The aggressive torque drop off is pretty standard for these as they can't hold the 20+psi peak boost for long so it's a quick rise and fall. 

A stock location 3071 is a decent choice depending on end goal. You’ll make somewhere around 250+wkw depending on accompanying mods.

 

Yeah sorry, should of mentioned that is was a Dynapak hub dyno.

 

I would've thought the dropoff would be more gradual, not like the plummet seen at 3500rpm, as the turbo holds 20psi until 5000rpm.

 

I see a lot of people not happy with stock location turbos though, and I don't really want to drop tons of money with a twisted custom setup. 

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On 17/07/2020 at 9:39 AM, Technikhaus said:

Ours (2.0L) is going in for a tune in two weeks, similar mods, but a little extra, Perrin 76mm intake, PBMS Catless downpipe, and an Invidia R400. 
It'll be tuned on 100 octane too, so will be interesting to see how it compares to yours. This will be tuned up in Christchurch at SAS. 


We had it dyno'd when it first came into the country at the end of 2018, here's the completely factory dyno sheet, with boost, you can see what @Gripless was talking about here:

stistockdyno.jpg

 

I actually had a q300  but pulled it off after less than a week and returned stock. Way too loud with a catless downpipe, how can you handle the r400 noise? Is it just a weekend car?

 

I know what the boost looks like, I have the same sheet as you.. I'm more interested in the 3500rpm region where my torque dips 70Nm in 1000 rpm... I'm just curious if that is normal, because the turbo is holding 20psi+ in that region. Is there some cam timing tuning which can spread that out, or that's just the turbo falling off a cliff in the compressor curve.

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10 minutes ago, Sweenz said:

 

Yeah sorry, should of mentioned that is was a Dynapak hub dyno.

 

I would've thought the dropoff would be more gradual, not like the plummet seen at 3500rpm, as the turbo holds 20psi until 5000rpm.

 

I see a lot of people not happy with stock location turbos though, and I don't really want to drop tons of money with a twisted custom setup. 

 

It’ll be the heat preventing it from holding longer, mine does the same thing. This is where meth injection or e85 would make a big difference.

 

Some tuners would just pull it back so it makes a 20-30nm less peak but can hold it considerably longer and look flatter.

 

49840568567_3e33e3d1ae_b.jpg49840267616_1f75156ce6_b.jpg

 

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On 17/07/2020 at 3:48 PM, Niran said:

Is yours a 2.5 or 2.0? 2.5L engines obviously have more displacement so will make a bit more power/torque.

 

Not having a catback exhaust and intake make a decent difference. I'd say 20-30kw.

 

Here is mine for reference:

Invidia DP and Q300 catback

3port solenoid

Cold air intake

Turbosmart IWG75 internal gate

Water meth kit

 

The blue line below is without the cat back, water meth and IWG internal gate

 

They did a run for me with all the mods above and without the meth going - it made 237kw

 

Red line is with all above mods and meth going - 254kw. 

 

MTiKZFO.jpg

 

 

 

Who tuned your car?

 

 

My 2.0L got tuned at Prestige on a Dynapack.

 

Yea I guess with the intake and catback I could pickup another 10-20wkw... but I may be getting old, the Q300 was unbearable with the drone.. and the i4 sound never really does it for me.

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11 minutes ago, Andy_Mac said:

 

It’ll be the heat preventing it from holding longer, mine does the same thing. This is where meth injection or e85 would make a big difference.

 

Some tuners would just pull it back so it makes a 20-30nm less peak but can hold it considerably longer and look flatter.

 

49840568567_3e33e3d1ae_b.jpg49840267616_1f75156ce6_b.jpg

 

 

Haha 98 is hard enough to find, let alone e85. I don't think I'd want to risk a meth setup on my daily either, just another thing to break.

 

What mods were you running to achieve the 225kW? It's nice you have got yours Dynapack dyno'd so its a bit comparable.

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1 hour ago, Sweenz said:


I know all this, I'm a mechanical engineer that has also done  some tuning courses, you don't need to explain basics. I was asking about the massive torque dip at 3500rpm, is it normal.

 

Thanks for the info on stock block, my is a jdm 2.0l

Sorry my mind read skills aren’t great


Peak is likely a couple of factors:

1) slight overboost or solenoid map not fully sorted

2) same as NA the runner length is usually set up for highway speed cruising so there is a dip around 3000-3500 rpm especially on the v11. 

3) smoothing on graphs not turned on as it’s from the live data screen, plus hub dyno so it picks up way more. 

Also those graph scales are not idea for viewing, they are distorted to show up changes while using the dyno.  If you output the graph so they are 4x wider than tall they'll look more in line with the cars real world feel. The car doesn’t feel like it has that much change at 3500 rpm I take it? Or is it stumbling?

 

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1 hour ago, Sweenz said:

 

I actually had a q300  but pulled it off after less than a week and returned stock. Way too loud with a catless downpipe, how can you handle the r400 noise? Is it just a weekend car?

 

I know what the boost looks like, I have the same sheet as you.. I'm more interested in the 3500rpm region where my torque dips 70Nm in 1000 rpm... I'm just curious if that is normal, because the turbo is holding 20psi+ in that region. Is there some cam timing tuning which can spread that out, or that's just the turbo falling off a cliff in the compressor curve.

 

We don't find it all too bad to be honest, not sure how it'll be with the cat-less down pipe though, we'll find that out tonight. 
And yeah, sorry but we don't know you, so don't know what you do and don't know, safer for me to assume nothing, and then it might help others of less knowledge later down the track that may read this thread :) 

Great to have someone here who knows their stuff though, so welcome!

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1 hour ago, Gripless said:

 

Sorry my mind read skills aren’t great


Peak is likely a couple of factors:

1) slight overboost or solenoid map not fully sorted

2) same as NA the runner length is usually set up for highway speed cruising so there is a dip around 3000-3500 rpm especially on the v11. 

3) smoothing on graphs not turned on as it’s from the live data screen, plus hub dyno so it picks up way more. 

Also those graph scales are not idea for viewing, they are distorted to show up changes while using the dyno.  If you output the graph so they are 4x wider than tall they'll look more in line with the cars real world feel. The car doesn’t feel like it has that much change at 3500 rpm I take it? Or is it stumbling?

 

 

haha no worries, I guess I left out a few deets in my post.

 

Ah right, the boost is a little bit unstable in this region... I may play with the PID tuning as it looks a bit too agressive. But I think you may be right that the runner length exacerbates it. I remember when we made a gsxr gokart back in the day we tuned the intake and exhaust so we had two peaks to spread it out. I guess the exhaust header and intake runners much be tuned for the same frequency in this case.

 

It feels smoother than what it did for sure, before the tune it was a bit jerky. I actually thought it felt slower after the tune, but actually it was just the smoothness. Was just curious if it should be expected, but it seems like it is and you are right the scaling is quite bad so it makes it look worse than it really is.

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1 hour ago, Technikhaus said:

 

We don't find it all too bad to be honest, not sure how it'll be with the cat-less down pipe though, we'll find that out tonight. 
And yeah, sorry but we don't know you, so don't know what you do and don't know, safer for me to assume nothing, and then it might help others of less knowledge later down the track that may read this thread :) 

Great to have someone here who knows their stuff though, so welcome!

 

I was in two minds with the Q300 about cutting out of old mid resonator and putting the biggest one I could find in. But decided to go stock, and research a bit more.. I will probably just buy another bike for my loud thrills though haha

 

No worries, should've just included the boost graph also!

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2 hours ago, Sweenz said:

 

haha no worries, I guess I left out a few deets in my post.

 

Also many other people read this over time so info helps anyone that reads later. 
 

For resonators the length is related to the damping frequency so bigger can get worse not better. Most resonators are just mufflers so that why people think they work. 


But with the cat removed the length of pipe that is a constant diameter has increased so the frequency has dropped and longer resonators help.


In NA cars often you remove length for longer headers and smaller mufflers that don’t go acros the rear of the car, so shorter is better. 

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6 hours ago, Sweenz said:

 

Haha 98 is hard enough to find, let alone e85. I don't think I'd want to risk a meth setup on my daily either, just another thing to break.

 

What mods were you running to achieve the 225kW? It's nice you have got yours Dynapack dyno'd so its a bit comparable.

 

Decatted stock downpipe

K&N intake 

R400 catback

TGV deletes

 

Plus a few other bits that aren't really relevant to this power level but did anyway for the future and reliability. Injectors may have helped a bit but others have got to this power level without them.

 

ID1050x injectors

Radium fuel rails

Radium fuel reg

AEM 340lph pump

DCCDPro FuelPro pump controller

Upgraded fuel pump wiring.

EMTron ECU

 

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Tune is now done on the STI, 309.3HP, so bang on 230KW, the limitation being the injectors unsurprisingly at 95%. 

Graph is annoyingly in HP not KW, but close enough. 
DynoPak hub dyno at SAS in Christchurch

 

Details:

Jap import 2L STI
100 octane fuel

Process West intake

PBMS catless downpipe

Invidia R400 exhaust

Secondary air injection system removed

Raceworks EFP-501 265Lph fuel pump

3 port BCS

 

Facebook messenger quality video:

 

v11stidyno.jpg

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Awesome result. Guess me doing injectors ahead of the tune made the difference with peak torque.

 

Interesting that the final drive ratio is different to mine, do you know what gear it was in?

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